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It's Not Gonna Take Long - Federal Challenge, Anyone?

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Mrs.PatsFanInVa, Apr 27, 2010.

  1. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Maybe I should have put this on one of the other two threads which already pertain to the new Arizona law but they're both getting rather unwieldy and off topic so I've taken the liberty of starting another.

    If a mod has a problem with it, please feel free to incorporate it into one of the others.

    WASHINGTON -- Attorney General Eric Holder said Tuesday that the federal government may challenge Arizona's new law on immigration.

    The attorney general told reporters that he fears Arizona's new law is subject to potential abuse.

    The Arizona law requires state law enforcement officials to ask people for documentation if they are suspected to be in the country illegally, and makes it a state crime if they are.

    The Justice Department and the Homeland Security Department are conducting a review of the state law.



    washingtonpost.com
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2010
  2. khayos

    khayos In the Starting Line-Up

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    I'm just curious:

    1.) Do you believe illegal immigration is a problem?
    2.) If you do believe it is a problem, what would you do to solve it?

    For those who answer "yes" to 1 but knee-jerk to any attempts to answer 2, you're not starting from a rational place.
     
  3. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    While I'm not totally on board with what Arizona did ... I am happy they did it.

    The government has been dragging it's feet on this issue for way to long and the threat to our security is also a component here. Arizona has a huge problem ... other states have way less of a problem which compunds Arizona's problem.

    I'm still in favor of the framework of a few years ago.

    5+ years you stay ...

    3-5 years you stay but with a price.

    Less than 3 years hasta la vista baby.
     
  4. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The grandfather of amnesty, Ronald Reagan did not place any limits and that was too liberal...

    There needs to be something in the middle, but more importantly there needs to be a consistent policy without which all this discussion is nonsense..
     
  5. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Eric Holder probably should be worrying about other stuff right now, rather then what Arizona is doing. Personally, I'd rather see them enforce the laws in place then force states to take matters into their own hands.
     
  6. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    That's not a bad idea at all.

    Maybe, if it's true that every cloud has a silver lining, that'll be exactly what happens.
     
  7. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    It's easy. Kick them all the **** out. We already have a process. Want in? Follow it. If not, get the **** out of my country. If that means getting caught, and being instantly deported, then awesome. That's how it should be. Afterall, you're not supposed to be here, and you know it. Bye.
     
  8. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    1) Yes

    2) Complicated - but I'd start with businesses in those areas with a large illegal population. Instead of the police in Az. being allowed to stop anyone who looks illegal maybe they could have passes a law which made it possible for the police to visit each business establishment who had "suspicious looking" workers and ask them to produce legal working permits for each of their employees. Arrest them and shut down their business if they're using illegal labor. Make the fines huge. Turn them into the IRS. Get the message out that hiring illegal aliens is no longer acceptable and will not be ignored. Do it often enough and others will get the message. The results are numerous. More jobs opened up for American citizens, more money for the governments, local and federal, much less reason for illegal immigrants to be here. People come here for the money, take away the source of the money and they'll either not come at all or they'll at least go somewhere else.

    If they did it that way, they'd be at the root of the problem, not the edge of it. Plus they wouldn't have to make more "crimes" to fit what they're trying to do. Did you know it's not a federal crime to be in this country illegally? It breaks anti-immigration law but it's not a federal crime. Crossing the border illegally is the crime - once you're here it's not a federal offense. That could be tightened up in the future and it could be made one but for now it IS a federal crime to hire illegal aliens - so hit that one first.

    Excerpts from Section 8 USC 1324 Law Regarding Hiring of Illegal Aliens

    I'm not sure the good people of Arizona (or any other state) would fall behind this with such enthusiam - since many of them will be personally affected, but it's the logical way to do it. Why create new laws when you're not enforcing the old ones?

    2) I'd think that we need to come up with some sort of amnesty, whether it's popular or not. There are people who have been in this country for years, decades even. Their children were born here, go to school here, have gotten married here. Sometimes you have to suck it up and compromise. I'd be ok with IcyP's suggestion.

    3) Tighten the borders - rigorously enforce the "no hire illegal workers" laws. Eventually, if the source of revenue for illegal aliens dries up the influx of people will dry up as well.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2010
  9. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    Exactly! If people came into my house uninvited, I"d tell them to get out. and I'd also say "Hell no, I"m not giving you any of my money!"

    What the heck is this, a charity?

    1. We do NOT have open borders
    2. We will never have open borders
    3. One must be invited to come live here.

    What I really don't understand is why people want to defend criminals. Like they're the victims when in fact our country and our citizens are the victims.

    Hey, I"ve got an idea, let's blame "CAPITALISM"....those effin robber-barons!!! :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2010
  10. khayos

    khayos In the Starting Line-Up

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    I'm curious how you say "tighten the borders" but why you don't support law enforcement to do so? Legal immigrants are already recommended to carry their paperwork on them at all times... green cards, visas. What other areas of enforcement do you sponsor: deploying national guard? adding border security (more law enforcement in their own right)? I would read into your logic that you are only giving lip service to "enforcement" and really are okay with the status quo where the federal government sits on its hands or, more likely, waiting for amnesty.

    Regarding your business penalty -- it seems flawed since you presume that all illegal immigrants are part of the work force. Secondly, how do you handle forged paperwork that might even pass a program like eVerify? But that just works for new hires. How about those who have been working for more than six months under forged paperwork? Do you frighten businesses into compliance and create an adversarial atmosphere or, rather than the stick, should incentive be placed on those who have full compliance with the law? Maybe some sort of "legal workers only" tax credit as a carrot.
     
  11. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Nothing works in a island, does it? I'm sure there are a lot of things which need to be done to protect border security. The National Guard is probably not a good option because it would be temporary at best and they are already overtaxed and are not trained for this sort of job. More law enforcement in their own right would be optimal. People who are specially trained and have a stake in doing their job properly since it is their only job.

    I'm unsure why you want to read anything into my logic. It is what it is. Thoughts on the subject, not a dissertation or a proposal.

    If I were "ok with the status quo" I wouldn't even be here wasting time talking about it, would I?

    I live in an area with a huge immigrant population - and not just Hispanics, either. We have street corners full every day with men hoping to be hired as day laborers and there are precious few fast food workers who speak English. I understand it's a problem. I understand it needs a solution. I also understand that my grandparents and my husband's parents came here from another country and there is/was no way to distinguish them from those who arrived legally or illegally.

    I'm willing to give anmesty a shot and start over. People come here for a reason - usually to escape something dreadful be it an unfriendly government, poverty, hunger, racial or religious persecution. Who am I to deny them what my grandparents and in-laws were saved by? Why would I want to? I will always support open immigration for anyone who is running from some sort of likely death or persecution. Our country was founded on the principal that we would always accept the poor, the tired, the hungry.
    There has to be some sort of balance which still allows them access to a better life while we keep out those who would abuse our hospitality.

    I don't have the answers. I don't pretend to have the answers. We probably need to look at what it takes to get a VISA to come here and to make sure that people can enter the country legally. For those that resort to coming here illegally, yes, they need to be turned back - for those that are already here - we need to take the time to identify them case-by-case and act justly but mercifully.

    Many of them are. Most of them come here because they think/hope/expect that they will be. If they get here and find that they cannot find employment, well, they're already here, aren't they? If word gets around that jobs are not plentiful perhaps they will not be so quick to cross the border.

    Now you're getting into details that no one is going to be able to work out. One of my kids once picked up a forged DL in order to drink in bars before he was 21. The damn thing was flawless and cost him less than $50.00. It's going to happen. Shi! always happens. The important thing is to catch most of it.

    Yes. Why not? Arizona has already showed us that we don't worry about frightening legal and illegal individuals into compliance, why not businesses or private employers, too? Is the woman who hires an illegal to watch her children any more special than the illegal she hires? Is she more exempt from the laws?


    I'm not a big fan of rewarding people for not breaking the law. You do what you're supposed to do because it's the right thing, not because doing the right thing is "special." I wouldn't give my kid a reward for not crashing my car into a light pole - he's not SUPPOSED to crash my car into a light pole.

    Besides, if you do what you're suggesting now you've got your original worry about the worker having forged papers, plus the added worry that you've made it profitable for his employer to work in collusion with him.
     
  12. khayos

    khayos In the Starting Line-Up

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    As you're a proponent of amnesty, I guess you don't really have a problem with illegal immigration. You believe that the population already here is a healthy party of society. So you definately would be at odds with Arizona as they're dealing with people who have already crossed the border. I agree you have to lock down the border but there also has to be a plan to deal with the people who have already broken the law. Just because they outran the cops doesn't make them any less guilty.
     
  13. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Phoenix is 2nd in the WORLD for kidnappings for ransom.

    Why should they be concerned about illegal aliens ......

    :rolleyes:
     
  14. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

  15. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Kidnapping is a federal offense, so it is somewhat difficult to ascertain the raw data... usually the Bureau of Justice Statistics has some good stuff, but cannot find the info right now..

    As far as second most dangerous.. they do not even make the top ten.. Haiti, Chechnya, Nigeria, Colombia and Northern Mexico amongst others are all ahead of them..........

    It seems to be a rumor floating around the blogosphere, so sure it will be true or contested by some..
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2010
  16. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    From everything I could find it seems to be a problem between drug smugglers and human traffickers....they seem to kidnap one another with some sort of regularity.

    In fact, I found one article in which a police officer stated that in 2008 there were 359 kidnappings in Phoenix, and not one was legitimate involving a truly innocent victim.

    The kidnappers, whoever they are, also seem to be concentrated on illigal immigrants - which could be why there's little federal involvement or there hasn't been a much huger hue & cry....perhaps the attitude is "let 'em kill one another," or something similar.

    Whatever it is - I'm pretty sure it's not involving anyone''s son or daughter. Those kinds of kidnappings are front page news - this has barely been any news at all.
     

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