Welcome to PatsFans.com

It's a good thing we stopped calling Korea the Axsis of Evil

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatsWSB47, Jun 8, 2009.

  1. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    7,877
    Likes Received:
    88
    Ratings:
    +169 / 0 / -1

    #12 Jersey

    Please forgive the AXSIS spelling ;-)

    Ah, remember the good old days when we all just knew that taking North Korea off the terror list would win their hearts and minds, bringing in a new era of diplomacy and cordial relations?:rolleyes:

    I guess reality is slapping Obama, Pelosi and Clinton smack in the face as the administration is considering adding them back on the list.

    N. Korea sentences 2 U.S. journalists - North Korea- msnbc.com

    N. Korea sentences U.S. journalists to 12 years


    SEOUL, South Korea - North Korea convicted two American journalists and sentenced them Monday to 12 years of hard labor, intensifying the reclusive nation's confrontation with the United States.

    Washington said it would "engage in all possible channels" to win the release of Laura Ling and Euna Lee, reporters for former Vice President Al Gore's San Francisco-based Current TV media venture.

    There are fears Pyongyang is using the women as bargaining chips as the U.N. debates a new resolution to punish the country for its defiant May 25 atomic test and as North Korea seeks to draw Washington into direct negotiations.
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2009
  2. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,675
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -1

    #75 Jersey

    Hell, I think I was about 5 years old when I understood that it was dangerous to cross the North Korean border...something you just don't do. Anyone here ever think otherwise?

    Not saying that what NK is doing is right - it isn't - but fakrissakes! Use you heads, girls!

    They shouldn't worry, though. They'll get a good workout for a couple months and then they'll be home as soon as we send Kim some porn DVD's and a traincar full of Cheeto's.
  3. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,031
    Likes Received:
    477
    Ratings:
    +1,191 / 9 / -7

    #75 Jersey

    Yeah, OP, calling them a name for 8 years really stopped
    'em in their path!
  4. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    7,877
    Likes Received:
    88
    Ratings:
    +169 / 0 / -1

    #12 Jersey


    Yeah but didn't we all know removing them from the list was going to bring on this new era of cooperation from them?:cool:
    Why is harsh criticism and "name calling" as you put it approprirate for the Obama administration? Double standard??
  5. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    18,048
    Likes Received:
    185
    Ratings:
    +259 / 10 / -11

    Bush rejected Clinton's approach, which made marginal progress. Bush was intransigent and basically had nothing going with NK for 6 years. Then, he gets something going and takes them off the terrorist list. Unfortunately, his approach only made things worse, and today NK has a viable nuclear weapons program and a criminally insane leadership. I don't know what the answer is, especially given China's resistance to punishing NK. What do you think Obama should do?
  6. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    7,877
    Likes Received:
    88
    Ratings:
    +169 / 0 / -1

    #12 Jersey

    Clinton's approach seemed to work only to find out NK secretly kept their programs going. We find out and take the gloves off and call them out for it. I think it’s lazy of you to simply blame Bush for making things worse than ever especially when several other nations including the US under Bush, China, South Korea, Russia and Japan reached an agreement all the way back in 2005 Now in 2009 NK flips everyone the bird and is behaving worse than ever. This all after Bush removed them from the terror list after NK insisted we do so as part of the agreement. Now the Obama administration is seeing first hand the difficulty in dealing with them and understands that playing nice does absolutely nothing.

    I think we need many partners in the world to try and reign them in.
  7. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,031
    Likes Received:
    477
    Ratings:
    +1,191 / 9 / -7

    #75 Jersey

    Name calling means nothing. Where did I ever write that it would be of primary importance for Obama to "condemn" anything?

    Actions mean everything.

    Once again, 8 years of Bush was all hat and no cattle.

    George W. Bush was the Freddie Mitchell of Presidents.
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2009
  8. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    10,834
    Likes Received:
    15
    Ratings:
    +23 / 0 / -0

    #80 Jersey

    I wonder if North Korea tortures these reporters?

    According to the brand "Axis of Evil" one would think its a forgone conclusion that they do.
  9. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    18,048
    Likes Received:
    185
    Ratings:
    +259 / 10 / -11

    Clinton managed to engage NK and secured a few concessions from them. Did it work? No. But, it did buy time. Bush did not negotiate with them. He ran on a get-tough platform, and that's what he held onto for most of his term. It accomplished absolutely nothing and in fact NK is bigger threat now than ever before. I agree we need many partners to reign them in, but the Chinese have always been a difficult partner, as have the Russians, and to some degree they are more concerned with Japan and American bases in South Korea than with NK.
  10. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    7,877
    Likes Received:
    88
    Ratings:
    +169 / 0 / -1

    #12 Jersey

    LOL Freddie Mitchell:singing:

    See my above post. China, Japan, South Korea and Russia all had their hats on as well, yet is is the Bush administration that failed? BTW I wasn't asking you specifically I was asking generally.
  11. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    7,877
    Likes Received:
    88
    Ratings:
    +169 / 0 / -1

    #12 Jersey

    First of all the time Clinton bought was a mirage. They continued their programs in secret. You're making my point. Bush wouldn't negotiate with them and realized over time (with much kicking and screaming) that they did need to be engaged and in 2005 he along with the other nations "secured concessions" that didn't work which we are facing the music now. Why do they always become a bigger threat after we make agreements with them? I think it's clear they are all talk and any agreement we/world makes with them isn't worth the paper it's written on....whether it's under Clinton, Bush and likely Obama. I'm not saying Bush was right in not engaging them until 2005 but I also don't think that is why NK is locking up our journalists or testing weapons non stop today.
  12. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,031
    Likes Received:
    477
    Ratings:
    +1,191 / 9 / -7

    #75 Jersey


    I didn't say the Bush Administration alone "failed" there.

    I was responding to your thread title implying that N. Korea (actually you wrote "Korea") is now more of a problem because we've stopped calling them names and that "reality is slapping" Obama, Clinton and Pelosi - - as if Bush was somehow previously getting somewhere on N.Korea with his Rex Ryan strategy.
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2009
  13. 363839

    363839 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    3,500
    Likes Received:
    2
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0

    Well, the article did say "Hard Labor" for some that IS torture.
    But to answer your question, I googled North Korean torture and
    I got a lot of hits...
    Here is one link.
    Revealed: the gas chamber horror of North Korea's gulag | World news | The Observer
  14. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    7,877
    Likes Received:
    88
    Ratings:
    +169 / 0 / -1

    #12 Jersey

    I'm not saying his "Rex Ryan strategy" was working. I was trying to show that the “be nice to them and they'll be nice back to us” crowd of which much of the liberal base led by Obama, Clinton and Pelosi were all in fantasy land if they though North Korea was going to party to that notion. Now they are ready to put them back on "Bush's list" Can't you see any irony there? It seems no one has come up with a sollution yet
  15. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,031
    Likes Received:
    477
    Ratings:
    +1,191 / 9 / -7

    #75 Jersey


    I'm not following how Obama started a "Let's Be Nice to Them Strategy".

    Do you mean, that he stopped calling them names? Does that even mean anything?

    My question to you is this: What has Obama done that is any "easier" on North Korea (this does NOT include stopping the Kindergarten name-calling that had ZERO effect in the first place)?

    In fact, I would put forward that Obama has TURNED UP THE HEAT on North Korea by dropping the name-calling. Kim and his cohorts no longer have the S. Korean students protesting FOR them, but now AGAINST THEM (actually supporting their OWN Gov't last week).

    This is the same dynamic we see playing out with Ahmedinejad and Bin Laden. Obama is the WORST thing to happen to the despots.
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2009
  16. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    27,091
    Likes Received:
    213
    Ratings:
    +502 / 6 / -2

    We went down this road a few years ago, in this forum. NK signed a deal in 1994, and a couple of years later, began working on it's program secretly.

    CNN.com - N. Korea to reactivate nuke plants - Dec. 12, 2002

    GW stopped the shipments of heavy fuel oil, post 9/11, becuz of this. The admin then held 6 party talks, and came to an agreement with NK. NK has since reneged a second time.

  17. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    27,091
    Likes Received:
    213
    Ratings:
    +502 / 6 / -2

    Couldn't one argue that the students in question, are actually more aware of NK's intentions, because of their being called the Axis of Evil? Afterall, the AofE line drew a lot of attention to those nations, and the business they were involved in. People didn't like it, but it brought their respective issues to light. So people protesting for them was arugably because they didn't believe George Bush's accusations, whereas now, as is evidenced by their changed tune, do. I'm just saying you know.
  18. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,031
    Likes Received:
    477
    Ratings:
    +1,191 / 9 / -7

    #75 Jersey


    No.

    The South Korean students don't learn anything new about their neighbors from George W. Bush.

    They are students. They do what college students all over the world do. They march for the "cool kid". The students and their politics are as shallow as a frog pond. I'm not saying it's a big achievement for Obama to get the students on his side, but it is an easy thing to do (if an American President is smart enough to do it) and it (stragely enough) takes some cover away from the NK's political position in the peninsula.

    Obama knows how to play the public relations card. Using it as one card out of many can only help. Being stupid enough not to use it is...........Bush-like.

    What Bush did was like the Pope preaching abstinence to teenagers, it was only white noise and it achieved nothing.
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2009
  19. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    7,877
    Likes Received:
    88
    Ratings:
    +169 / 0 / -1

    #12 Jersey

    Agreeing with you. To his credit Obama has turned up the heat, now is considering black listing them and has toned down the diplomacy rhetoric in favor of his latest condemnation and sanctions declarations. Obama spoke of progress back in the six nation talks days but now sees that there was really no progress at all. As president Obama is talking differently than he did as a candidate....back when he and many dems thought the nice approach would win NK over.
  20. godef

    godef Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    3,118
    Likes Received:
    6
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0

    Yeah, in the same way Reagan calling the USSR the axis of evil helped speed up the end the cold war. ;)

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>