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It's a gift that Obama keeps on giving TOO MUCH and OFTEN

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by NEPatriot, Dec 30, 2009.

  1. NEPatriot

    NEPatriot Banned

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    Government to Citigroup's aid again, giving bank massive tax break

    Do you see a real OBAMA?

    He puts you in jail if you don't buy OBAMACARE or pay your taxes. However, these bailed out banks don't have to pay billion dollars in tax. Is it nice or what???????
     
  2. Gravel

    Gravel Rookie

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    Re: Right wing rant # infinity

    This has been the case for quite awhile and it is legitimate. You almost certainly use public services and therefore not paying your taxes is akin to shoplifting. As for the fact that it is difficult to opt-out of public services/tax money is spent inefficiently representative democracy is supposed to solve this. However, the reason it doesn't is not Obama's fault. Lobbying(personal interests included here), & the pressure of re-election(Need to conform to conception of public opinion/alter public opinion so as to get votes) are what twist the motives of politicians away from the public good. Unfortunately the solution with which we have been provided, the vote, just contributes to the issue by placing re-election pressure on new people. Short of 1 term maximums or an absurd upswing in empathy and genuine concern for the public I do not see this changing. BTW I would love for someone to refute me on this, we need something to change.

    See the public service/shoplifting analogy, as a free-rider you would be imposing a hidden tax on everyone else for which you would pay a fine not be imprisoned

    url=ttp://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/11/interview-with-the-president-jail-time-for-those-without-health-care-insurance.html

    (put the h in http my post count isn't large enough to allow for link-posting so this is how I am circumventing it)

    The question is not, whether or not Obama is evil and hates America/Americans it is, whether or not bailing out banks good economics. Will this strategy actually cause the banks to repay the loan faster. This I do not pretend to know or be knowledgeable enough to have an opinion about and I am too lazy to use the google to find a well reasoned/supported by evidence opinion.
     
  3. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Re: Right wing rant # infinity

    I though the uninsured were dying in the streets. Now they're getting free ride health care ? Which one is it ? Actually the Libs like to make it sound like it's both to make it that much more scary and evil.
     
  4. Gravel

    Gravel Rookie

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    Re: Right wing rant # infinity

    My point assumes that universal healthcare paid for by taxation is put in place. As of right now those that cannot afford insurance are obviously not free-riding.

    edit: No need to capitalize universal healthcare
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2009
  5. Satchboogie3

    Satchboogie3 In the Starting Line-Up

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    I see no reason why I should have to fund public schools no one in my family attends, aids that I don't care for, and wars that this country don't belong in. What happened to for the people, by the people, of the people? How should this Gov't be able to fight a war that virtually no citizens want to be in? We don't have a voice in our Gov't, we lost it a long time ago.

    There is a simple solution to elections, make it illegal to take campaign donations. Someone wants to campaign but doesn't have the money? Write a book, do something else. Americans need to make it a point to stop electing the same wealthy families, they don't give a sh*t about us.
     
  6. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Re: Right wing rant # infinity

    The Libs claim they are - you know, the line about how health costs for the uninsured are so high because they go straight to the emergency room for a cold, etc.
     
  7. Gravel

    Gravel Rookie

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    The issue with this is that re-election pressure still exists, and the only real way to get elected, either for the first time or for the 31st time, is to use the mainstream media and be picked by your party. So the rich have a decided advantage in ability to get a message out. The hope is I suppose that the web's more individual friendly nature will allow individuals to campaign more effectively. Unfortunately corporations still get most of the web traffic so until the New York times or Abc start endorsing the nobodies they will not get
    enough media coverage to be elected. And the whole no c-donations thing is a band-aid over a gaping chainsaw wound. It addresses the symptom but not the issue. The symptom is Lobbyists having control over our public affairs. But the issue is that the primary motive of a politician is to get re-elected/make money. So a combination of no-donations/1 term only might be a start.

    Anyways the reason you are taxed for minority interests is that theoretically your interests are also paid for by others. If you feel that you are not being reimbursed through other people paying for your needs than that is the issue. If you really want for the people. by the people, of the people, be mindful of the fact that that is either anarchy or leaders who actually represent your interests, or absolute democracy. Absolute democracy is just not realistic in a nation of 100 million plus voters, anarchy is incredibly unfair(which is what you complain about), and with strategic voting being a certainty/different motives for politicians than public the public's voice will continue to be distorted.

    TLDNR:

    Aids point: Under current system you don't, and in future system the reason you do is that the system will pay for yours if you get it.

    War point: I agree but its a representative democracy we don't get that choice but we should. In any case already being in the war makes pulling out a complex ethical calculus(Don't be immature about this). Should the people's interest be represented absolutely correctly here yes but the error of our system made a mistake that we cannot pretend never happened and just move on. Is it especially egregious because of the incredibly low support, yes but there is little we can do short of changing our governmental system.

    School Point: I am too young to have enough experience with taxation to be able to effectively argue here.

    Wealthy guys issue: Campaign donations idea not enough because other pressures still exist but maybe you are onto something.
     
  8. Gravel

    Gravel Rookie

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    Re: Right wing rant # infinity

    Fine, but does that at all impact my original claim that in a universal healthcare system those that do not buy "Obamacare" are free riding and thus deserve to be penalized.
     
  9. Satchboogie3

    Satchboogie3 In the Starting Line-Up

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    I do agree with your points. Our entire system is flawed (you could argue it's the people) and I think we need a complete re-haul. I know how difficult it would be, but I think it has to happen. We need a clean slate, start over from scratch. Individual rights need to be the #1 concern again and the people need to get their voice back. I don't care how daunting of a task it would be, it needs to happen.

    The first step that needs to happen is for Americans to smarten up and become active. Education needs to be a focal point of American Life (and I'm not talking about schools or Gov't, I'm talking about learning and knowledge). Ultimately we are what we are. If we are a nation of stupid, uneducated people, our Gov't will reflect it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2009
  10. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Re: Right wing rant # infinity

    Everyone should pay for their healthcare/insurance but this method is crap. Many people can/will pay the small fine for no insurance then sign up for insurance when they need it due to the pre-existing condition mandate. It is very poorly thought out.
     
  11. Gravel

    Gravel Rookie

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    Re: Right wing rant # infinity

    Ok, but my original post was not meant to endorse the Obamacare system but rather to dispel the OP's ad hominem attack on Obama.

    Also I'm afraid, and this is not your fault as a high schooler I'm not familiar with the ins and outs of insurance, that I have failed to understand

     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2009
  12. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Re: Right wing rant # infinity

    What I was saying is there is a small ($750) fine for not buying insurance. There is also a new requirement that insurance companies cannot turn you down with a pre existing condition. As a health insurance policy will cost a good deal more than $750, it is fully reasonable to not get insurance and pay the small fine. Then, say, you are diagnosed with Cancer or some other serious issue, you can get your insurance and can't be turned down.

    The $750 isn't locked in as the bill isn't either but it's about that. It can actually be 2% of income which would be about $1,000 for the median income in the current Senate bill but the concept is the same.
     
  13. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    People with cancer and no insurance get treated for free today. How can you be upset that people in the future with cancer and no insurance will have at least kicked in with a $750/yr tax penalty? No matter how you look at it, its a $750/yr contribution to solving the problem.
     
  14. NEPatriot

    NEPatriot Banned

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    Re: Right wing rant # infinity

    It's a fair discussion. Obama used tax payers' money to bail out these banks and they don't pay back owned billion dollars in tax when we don't have any more money. Who will pay for these billion dollars? Still us????

    What kind of message does Obama send to us about paying taxes when his friends in DC and Wall Street don't do it?
     
  15. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    Re: Right wing rant # infinity

    Looks like SOMEONE actually recruited gravel to come here to post on our famous political board...how sad is that?
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2009
  16. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I thought they were dying in the streets ? That's what we're told.
     
  17. Gravel

    Gravel Rookie

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    Re: Right wing rant # infinity

    Look I'll reiterate what i said before, the question is not whether or not Obama is looking to help out his buddies on wall street but rather whether not placing the pressure to pay back the taxes now is sound economics. If you believe that it is not say so and why you believe this. As for my personal opinion I don't really know enough about this stuff to be able to decide. In any case I think it is necessary to demonstrate that Obama's claim that the banks will pay the loans back sooner with this decision to be false before we start to implicate him for cronyism.
     
  18. Gravel

    Gravel Rookie

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    You are putting words in our mouths. The whole "What we are told" argument is either an attempt at the straw man fallacy or a failure to grasp the fact that just by defending Obama from ad hominem attack we do not necessarily agree with party lines about health care. If you want to discuss the justification for universal healthcare say so, and each poster will provide their ideas. By putting words in people's mouths not only you fail to advance the discussion, but also you annoy people.
     
  19. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I'm talking about Liberal talking points, not you.
     
  20. NEPatriot

    NEPatriot Banned

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    Re: Right wing rant # infinity

    It's HUGE difference between delaying and avoiding to pay taxes. Loans and taxes are two different things. Do you know the difference?


    If Obama wanted to delay the tax payments from these banks so that they could be on their feet, it would be one thing. For him to tell them not paying taxes, it's BS.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2009

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