It occurred to me...

[RayClay]

Hey guys...you missed the point of the thread. This isn't about whether this unit without Samuel is better or worse than the other championship team's; its about the fact that the last 6 superbowl champs won DESPITE not having great CB groups.

Is it a trend?

Does the predominence of 2 deep safeties NOW make the SAFETY position the new dominant position in the secondary?

Do you now draft the best safety over the best CB?

its questions like that and more, is what I thought the discussion would be about.

I would agree that the relative importance of safeties and cornerbacks has been shifting for years. I would also agree that depth is more importsnt than ever with spread offenses and other innovations.

Still, I don't remember them without 1 top CB and Hobbs is not one.

 

[DarrylS]

At the beginning of last year remember Tom Curran saying how Samuel was essentially a nickel back playing corner, guess he was proven wrong and he had a very good year. But does one good year warrant Nate Clements cash?? I think not, come back play like it is a contract year once again and then sign long term. Samuels had a very good year, to threaten this team with sitting out for 10 games and distance from them in a time of grief, only makes me believe he is gone. We hear the rhetoric from the players talking about how they can separate the game from the business side, but I betcha there are some rumblings about his hold out..

 

[ironwasp]

For every wonderful Artrell and versatile Chad Scott we had Duane Starks, Earthwind Moreland, Arturo Freeman, Eric Warfield, one great year of Poole, 2 washout years and Antonio Langham. OK, that's a stretch.

Where is Earthwind Moreland? I can't believe there isn't room on this team for a guy called Earthwind Moreland. It's the greatest name in the history of the sport. And I like it so much I'm going to type it again.

Earthwind Moreland.

 

[BTTA]

I agree with this. Without Samuel, CB is the one glaring weakness on this team, and everyone we play will gameplan to take advantage of it. Teams with good passing games will have an advantage.

Our coaching staff will know this better than anyone on this board, of course, so for us to suggest that we can see something that they don't is the height of absurdity.

It'll be interesting to watch what they do going forward.

Not that it would solve the problem in the short run, but there's a pretty good corner coming out in the supplemental draft.

Wow are you stretching. You have 2 safeties in there, one's a rookie and one's been invisible for two years.

One of your cornerbacks is as durable as those chairs they use in western movies, one is very short and probably better suited for nickle.

One is a decent big receiver cover, no good against any speed. A backup al the way.

The other is a castoff that hasn't even got a look yet.

This lineup is better than who?

 

[stinkypete]

Hey Patjew!!!

There's no doubt since the injury and insults from Ty BB has done a great job with two mid picks,(2+4) and a collection of role players. Yes, it was good enough one year, but hardly the strength of the team.

How soon we forget the horror stories, though. We lost Scott for a year and every other DB has seemed made of glass.

For every wonderful Artrell and versatile Chad Scott we had Duane Starks, Earthwind Moreland, Arturo Freeman, Eric Warfield, one great year of Poole, 2 washout years and Antonio Langham. OK, that's a stretch.

But the point is there's no guarantees depending on role players and We had a #1 in Samuel, even if he was raw to replace Ty Law.

Anybody think Hobbs is a #1 CB on any team in the NFL? I don't.

Actually, I think Hobbs would be a #1 CB, or at least a starter, in Indy, Cleveland, Buffalo, Tennessee, NY Giants, St. Louis, Green Bay, Detroit and maybe Pittsburgh and New Orleans too.

 

[Pats726]

At the beginning of last year remember Tom Curran saying how Samuel was essentially a nickel back playing corner, guess he was proven wrong and he had a very good year.

he has a great half a year...NOT a full year..which I THINK makes a big difference. SO he plays great in 11 games basically..do you pay him that much on that small a sample?? Who around Game 8 would have dreamed of Asante being franchised and had all this fuss over?? NOT many at all..if that..the talk at that point was franchising Graham..signing Koppen and Samuel?? He wasn't a big deal!! 11 games hardly warrants the kind of money he is talking about...SO I agree no big money for AS....

 

[RayClay]

Actually, I think Hobbs would be a #1 CB, or at least a starter, in Indy, Cleveland, Buffalo, Tennessee, NY Giants, St. Louis, Green Bay, Detroit and maybe Pittsburgh and New Orleans too.

I can't argue the point personnel wise. If it's true, they don't have good corners.

I know Indy doesn't. They weren't that great in the first place and didn't they lose two?

Anyway, I have to assume you know more about league rosters than I do, most people do.

But if we've identified teams with problems that doesn't mean we want the same problems. After all we have relied on defense to win championships.

 

[WhiZa]

With our pass rush (think last year + AD) I am not worried about the CB position at all.

 

[godef]

... In 2006 the Colts CBs were so mediocre that they watched BOTH of them leave and didn't blink an eye, thinking they upgraded with their back ups. ...

Of course, you know that's pure spin coming out of Indy. If those backups were better, then why were they the backups? Even if you give the benefit of a doubt and suppose they have improved with experience, I'd call it a wash at best, but a definite downgrade at worse.

Indy has won their Super Bowl, and now they're going to fall off like Pittsburgh did last year. Meanwhile, the Patriot dynasty continues.

That's right, Indy fans. The Pats were one minute removed from taking the Colts place in Super Bowl XLI. The dynasty is STILL alive. The Colts are one and done.

 

[godef]

I look at it this way. Is he better than Ty Law? Hell no.
Did the Pats win 2 Superbowls since Laws' departure. F*ck yeah!
I think Belichick will trade him before the season starts.
It will be for a 09 first round pick, too with possibly a 3rd for 08.
How we gonna pay three first round picks in one year?
I love it.

Whoa, your recall is a little wacked!

Do you forget the 3 Ty Law interceptions in the AFC Championship vs Indy, leading up to Super Bowl XXXVIII? Ty Law PLAYED in that Super Bowl.

Ty Law was injured in the Steeler game (?) in 2005, and it wasn't clear right up through the play-offs that he was done for that year. However, he was still a New England Patriot when they won SB XXXIX.

Point taken though, the 2004 season and SB XXXIX was won without his services for the most part.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

What is it with Florida? Too much sunshine, not enough income taxes? In 2005 Brownfan80 was on suicide watch, Armand goes through bi-polar fits on a regular basis during the season, and this offseason RayClay is looking for a Kevorkian self-portrait for his avatar. Ray, I hope you get some snow and ice soon.

 

[RayClay]

What is it with Florida? Too much sunshine, not enough income taxes? In 2005 Brownfan80 was on suicide watch, Armand goes through bi-polar fits on a regular basis during the season, and this offseason RayClay is looking for a Kevorkian self-portrait for his avatar. Ray, I hope you get some snow and ice soon.

Actually it was the hibernating for 6 months that adversely affected my moods.

Is the ice out up there yet? I'm planning on spending half the summer up there. I've got two weeks so I could get half the sun for the year if I'm lucky.

I know you're cranky, but why not respond to the content of the posts? Ken made some very good points about the relative importance of startingcorners vs. depth and top safeties which I agree with.

I just can't agree we have 2 good starters with Samuel gone.

We weren't world beaters with Samuel. Without him, I see us with depth meaning 5-6 potential backups/nickle backs vying to prove they are top cornerbacks.

We're not talking shutdown corners here, just good NFL starters. It's Hobbs, (limited against big receivers, not smooth and prone to penalties or looking like he's committing penalties, which is the same thing) and ??? marks.

Taking guys who have been injured, invisible playing other positions or having limited experience at corner and making them a top corner is called projecting.

 

[Pats726]

Actually, Ty was on the team for all 3 SBs. He was hurt and didn't play in the last one.

Now THAT is nitpicking.

IRed..I believe a few games before...

 

[363839]

Actually, Ty was on the team for all 3 SBs. He was hurt and didn't play in the last one.

Now THAT is nitpicking.

Ok, Ok, Ok....

How about ...Will the Pats win 3 to 4 or 5 more without him? Yes!

 

[shmessy]

Wow are you stretching. You have 2 safeties in there, one's a rookie and one's been invisible for two years.

One of your cornerbacks is as durable as those chairs they use in western movies, one is very short and probably better suited for nickle.

One is a decent big receiver cover, no good against any speed. A backup al the way.

The other is a castoff that hasn't even got a look yet.

This lineup is better than who?

Of the top of my head? The 2005 New England Patriots Playoff CB lineup that steamrolled The Great Indy O, the 15-1 Steelers in Pittsburgh and the Philadelphia Eagles.

Yeah, that one.

 

[RayClay]

Of the top of my head? The 2005 New England Patriots Playoff CB lineup that steamrolled The Great Indy O, the 15-1 Steelers in Pittsburgh and the Philadelphia Eagles.

Yeah, that one.

Well we have different opinions on the relative merits of Samuel and Hobbs.

I think Samuel is a superior smooth cornerback. I feel we have better depth than that squad.

In 2004 we started with Law and Samuel, I believe. We ended with Samuel and a surprising Gay. Gay had a few good games in a row, which is as long as he seems to make it without an injury.

I would take our emergency starters, (due to injury), that year over our projected starters this year. (Hobbs, ?).

Of course our season starters in 2004, (Law, Samuel), were much better than any possible combination on the current roster.

 

[bradmahn]

Well we have different opinions on the relative merits of Samuel and Hobbs.

I think Samuel is a superior smooth cornerback. I feel we have better depth than that squad.

In 2004 we started with Law and Samuel, I believe. We ended with Samuel and a surprising Gay. Gay had a few good games in a row, which is as long as he seems to make it without an injury.

I would take our emergency starters, (due to injury), that year over our projected starters this year. (Hobbs, ?).

Of course our season starters in 2004, (Law, Samuel), were much better than any possible combination on the current roster.

Ray Clay, you are the one who is nitpicking and/or intentionally ignoring facts. In '04 the starters ended the season as Asante and Gay. Asante (the year before) was a nickelback, a short guy with little to no speed who no one thought would amount to much more than maybe a solid no. 2. Hobbs, at the beginning of last season, was better than Asante (he was covering the no. 1 of the other team for the first couple of weeks). The backups in '04 were a WR and a couple guys off the street. So, assuming Samuel holds out we have Hobbs, who is better now than Asante was in '04, and Gay, with backups being Scott, James, and Merriweather as a nickel. I'd take that over the '04 team.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Ray,

May I suggest decaffeinated beverages and more sleep? Failing that, go read about the Dolphins or Bears for some perspective.

Hugs big fellow, Dr. Uncle Box

 

[shmessy]

I can see what RayClay is saying, however, the 2004-2005 version of Aasnte Samuel (2nd year) was not the current version.

If we're comparing 2004-2005 Samuel and Gay as the starting CB's for the Pats in the dominant SB39 Playoff run, versus a CB starter combo in 2007 of Hobbs and Gay......I'd say that's a standoff.

Add in the 2004-05 playoff "depth" of Moreland, Poteat, Troy Brown versus 2007 of Tory James, Chad Scott and Eugene Wilson (yes, he could very well be switched over) and I'd say 2007 looks far superior at CB.

If you want to look further in the secondary we could also compare the Safety situation of 2004-05 of Rodney, Geno, Dexter Reid, Rabih Abdullah and J'rod Cherry, versus today of Rodney, Sanders, Merriweather, Artrell Hawkins, Willie Andrews and Mel Mitchell. That comparison seems laughable. I would allow that 2004-05 Rodney is superior to 2007 Rodney, but after that the comparison seems stark.

So long, Asante.

 

[shakadave]

Not to nitpick, but we won one Superbowl without Ty Law, not two.

And let's nitpick further: We haven't won ANY Superbowls in years that Ty Law was not a New England Patriot. Yes, it was Halloween 2004 at Heinz Field that Law got hurt. I was there. Picked the wrong Pats-Steelers game that year!

There are lots of Patriots stars without whom we could still hope to win a Super Bowl, but that never makes it preferable to be without them!