it hurts to say goodbye,but-----

[CrazyDave]

Wow.
And this from a guy on a distinguished road.

 

[I'm Ron Borges?]

As far as using the Walker trade as an example, why not use the example that most thread readers will be familiar with. The records of the teams involved has nothing to do with the trade itself. This past season didn't the Raiders trade a proven tight end for a pick which they drafted a tight end with? A proven player for a draft pick - never happened before in the history of the NFL, never worked, except some of the time. My insight on Willie Andrews are the local media who wrote, without exception, that Willie Andrews was the only one who could stay with Chad Jackson. Plus, I didn't say it would happen, I said I wouldn't be surprised. A number 1 draft choice for Deion Branch, but surely anybody could get at least a 2 for him. He's better than every receiver the Eagles have right now, plus they have the money to spend. The biggest charge I've had all night is for you to comment that my post had nothing to do with the Patriots and then argue at length over my ideas concerning Deion Branch, Willie Andrews, et al. But don't worry, I never try to inject factual matter into a discussion with somebody who's mind is already made up.

I'll tell you what. If the Pats can get what the Cowboys got for Walker, I'm all for trading Branch. How does that sound? I'm just saying if you are going to compare something, don't compare apples to oranges. The Cowboys were a terrible team with one good player and they found a team stupid enough to mortgage their entire future to get him. Even if the Pats did trade Branch, it would be nothing like the Walker deal so again, the comparison makes no sense.

PS The tight end you are referring to is Doug Jolley and he sucks. If he's "proven" then Ben Watson is already a Hall of Famer.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

We pickup David Patton upon release.

There is no guarantee David will be released. There is no guarantee David will remain healthy through camp. There is no guarantee if he is and they do someone else won't again be willing to overpay him because they lost a WR in TC.

We trade Branch to Philly and Graham to Bronco. That should get us a first and second round choice in next years draft and we could even send Neal to the west coast for a second rounder. That allows us to pick up a receiver plus a cornerback in the first round. The picks that are left, a future center and a blocking tightend. now depending on injuries we have a very good chance at three-in-a-row. no more contract disputes, a fully loaded team with no glaring weakness but that starts next year not now.

We can tag Branch after a contract season performance for us in 2006 and either play him or trade him to the highest bidder before the 2007 draft. We could slap the transition tag on Graham and get a third from whomever signs him in 2007 without weakening ourselves and bolstering an AFC rival in 2006. Neal isn't going to bring a second rounder based on he was a FA this season and nobody on the west coast or any other coast wanted him enough to sign him to more than we offered, which wasn't a ton but his signing bonus would then hit our cap in 2006 and 2007 for a future pick who might never pan out.... Since we do not draft for need but for value there is really no way to predict what we might be able to do with those picks anyway. We'd be relying on a ****load of unproven rookies performing well in 2007 - in case you hadn't heard BB likes adding veterans for their leadership and experience, and tends to fill need with them while drafting for talent and value. Some of our best players in this run have been veteran FA's he had a pretty good sense he could count on like Rodney, Vrabel, Colvin, Dillon...

we still have a shot this year but only if Brady and the kids click and Rodney comes back for second half of season. Dante can get one of the o-line picks to fill Neal's spot. look what he did last year.

Dante plugged guys in last year for sure, and while we survived it wan't pretty or entirely effective as our early exit from the playoffs would indicate - with an admittedly exhausted QB hiding a sports hernia...

But if you can picture next year. Chad, Reche and a first rounder, with Bam and Stone filling in. Yes that means Troy Brown and David Patton will be gone but age catches up to everyone. This is an offense that is as good or better than the rest of the NFL. The rest of the decade Bill could concentrate on defensive players corners,linebackrs and d-line, plus he could go for the cream of the crop. Would like to know,what do you think?

We have no idea how Chad and Reche will pan out until we see them on the field in the regular season in pads against legitimate competition. One is signed for 4 years and if he knocks our socks off and develops into a #1 WR (or even thinks he should be compensated like one) he'll be looking for a new deal in 3. The other is only signed to a 2 year deal and looking to get his career back on track. If he does he'll be looking for a long term deal as a #1 or #2 as soon as next season. There will always be contract issues and turnover. It's part of the game and the key is not allowing it to cause you to panic and over react. Belioli is good at that. Many fans are not.

The best approach is to play for today with an eye on tomorrow, which is just what Belioli does. If you risk today to play for tomorrow, sometimes tomorrow doesn't come in the NFL. This team is committed to fielding a competitive playoff caliber team every season for just that reason. But even the window philosophy teams would be reluctant to take your radical approach because something could happen following that one intervening season they chose to effectively blow off that slams their window shut indefinitely. Loss of a franchise QB being paramount on that worry list. Then all that manuevering for the future would have netted them is likely the spectre of a trip to the unemployment line for trying to get too cute with their future assumptions and inadvertently screwing up their last best playoff opportunity for the forseeable future.

 

[Flying Fungi]

Flying Fungi - You said Vince Wilfork didn't come through Miami. The year before we won the SB but also obtained Miami's #1 draft pick for our 2nd round draft pick that year. How else could we have gotten the 21st pick after winning the SB? If you insist that the Easter Bunny brought Vince Wilfork to New England, far be it from me to argue with you.

do your homework junior, the Wilfork pick came from Baltimore

We traded the Drew Bledsoe pick (from Buffalo) in the previous season's draft to Baltimore for their 2nd rounder that season and a 1st rounder the follwing season. Baltimore used the NE pick to draft Kyle Boller. NE used the 2nd rounder to trade again from 41 to 36 to draft Eugene Wilson and then used Baltimore's #1 to draft Vince Wilfork the following season.

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFLDraft/Draft+Day/2003/Trades.htm

PS--you will note that New England and Miami swapped a 3 for a 2 the following year--that was the 3 from New Orleans for Tebucky Jones. We used the 2 from Miami to trade for Corey Dillon with Cincinnati. Just thought I'd point that out before you go mentioning the Easter Bunny again...

 

[patsox23]

Patsox23 - You bad mouth a post in the foulest way, without specifics, without details and obviously without the benefit of at least two connected brain cells. You have the audacity to put yourself in a position of judging whether a post should go on or not (that's more absurd than anything I could say, I could never be that presumptuous). You added that you hoped this post would wither on the vine. I, on the other hand, always encourage thought and discussion and the only thing I hope that withers is your ability to reproduce like-minded human beings.

I'm all for back and forth, but when the original post is so ludicrously out of reality, it's very frustrating, as you've seen, particularly for those of us who have been here for YEARS offering posts/ideas that are decidedly realistic and possible. You want me to go point-by-point?

Fine.

 

[Underoath]

We pickup David Patton upon release. We trade Branch to Philly and Graham to Bronco. That should get us a first and second round choice in next years draft and we could even send Neal to the west coast for a second rounder. That allows us to pick up a receiver plus a cornerback in the first round. The picks that are left, a future center and a blocking tightend. now depending on injuries we have a very good chance at three-in-a-row. no more contract disputes, a fully loaded team with no glaring weakness but that starts next year not now. we still have a shot this year but only if Brady and the kids click and Rodney comes back for second half of season. Dante can get one of the o-line picks to fill Neal's spot. look what he did last year. But if you can picture next year. Chad, Reche and a first rounder, with Bam and Stone filling in. Yes that means Troy Brown and David Patton will be gone but age catches up to everyone. This is an offense that is as good or better than the rest of the NFL. The rest of the decade Bill could concentrate on defensive players corners,linebackrs and d-line, plus he could go for the cream of the crop. Would like to know,what do you think?

this isn't madden. do what you want on Madden, but this is the real life, and that is probably the dumbest thing i've ever heard.

 

[JoeSixPat]

This is one of those great threads where everyone jumps in to slam a trade theory and make themselves feel smart in a football sense

Give Owl credit for offering some entertainment during the football dog days of summer for advocating that we go into the season without our #1 & #2 WRs from last year... it was bound to generate interest around here.

 

[patsox23]

"We pickup David Patton upon release."

Spell his name right next time, but this I agree with - except he won't DEFINITELY be released. Don't post like it's a foregone conclusion.

"We trade Branch to Philly and Graham to Bronco. That should get us a first and second round choice in next years draft and we could even send Neal to the west coast for a second rounder. That allows us to pick up a receiver plus a cornerback in the first round."

First of all, we wouldn't necessarily get those picks, but say we do - what on EARTH are we going to do, ya know, THIS YEAR???? Oh, and why would we trade Neal? We just signed him to a long-term deal and clearly like him. And we need young VETS along the OL.

"The picks that are left, a future center and a blocking tightend."

This is so ridiculously simplistic I don't even know how to respond. Which picks? Won't we have MORE picks than that "that are left?" Or if you mean HIGH picks, why would we spend a high pick on a "blocking tightend {sic}?"

"now depending on injuries we have a very good chance at three-in-a-row. no more contract disputes, a fully loaded team with no glaring weakness but that starts next year not now."

Why are you suggesting we give up "now," and how on Earth can you assume "three in a row?" Do you have any idea how much luck is involved in winning ONE, but you're going to somehow guarantee "a very good chance at three-in-a-row???" Absurd.

"we still have a shot this year but only if Brady and the kids click and Rodney comes back for second half of season."

You make it sound like Brady clicking with young WR's and Rodney being available for the second half each represents some kind of long-shot. Why? Brady has clicked with young WR's before, and Rodney is projected to be ready by the 2nd half of the season.

"Dante can get one of the o-line picks to fill Neal's spot. look what he did last year."

Dante's great, we all know that. He's done a terrific job. But if you have a proven guy, one of the few established-but-still-young, healthy vets on the roster at controlled low-ish $$$, why trade him???

"But if you can picture next year. Chad, Reche and a first rounder, with Bam and Stone filling in. Yes that means Troy Brown and David Patton will be gone but age catches up to everyone."

"With Bam and Stone filling in???" You're like a jet fan - I suspect you ARE a jet fan, by the way - assuming a guy is good simply because YOU'VE HEARD HIS NAME. Bam Childress has done pretty much nothing and Stone has done ABSOLUTELY nothing. I like Bam, I hope he does become "the next Troy Brown," but ease up a little bit. This is putting the cart way, WAY before the horse.

"This is an offense that is as good or better than the rest of the NFL."

I agree. It IS. Already. You're saying it as though, WITH YOUR PLAN, what you've described will represent "an offense as good or better than the rest of the NFL." The offense, as constituted, is already a top offense. Pay attention.

"The rest of the decade Bill could concentrate on defensive players corners,linebackrs and d-line, plus he could go for the cream of the crop. Would like to know,what do you think?"

I think you are likely younger than 16 years old and surely a sincerely passionate, young fan of the Patriots - to be commended - or a troll - to be admonished. I think your ideas are pie-in-the-sky, based on a nether-reality. I think you may mean well, but that this thread is the kind of unsophisticated rubbish that clogs OTHER football talk sites but didn't, in the past, infest this one. And I think it's unfortunate that this much time has been spent on the subject already.

You asked for specifics, you got 'em.

 

[Owl]

Flying Fungi - You might be surprised, but I appreciate you correcting me on the draft choice and where it came from. When I originally put up the thread I thought it would be something that would provoke thought and discussion and in one or two instances, it did, but unfortunately, the vast majority of respondents didn't. I've been referred to as junior, newbie, and still others that would post a picture of a dog defecating to describe what they think of my proposal. If you look at the original post at the end I wrote out of complete and utter respect for the participants in this forum, "what do you think?" How naive I was to think that, particularly from the "senior" members, they might start off with, "welcome to the forum." And, if they disagreed, to state why. I thought the give and take would be delightful. Unfortunately, I've run into vigilantes, mob rule, people who want to ban threads, limit thought, a "think like me or you're gone attitude." Look back at the original post, was it truly worth piling on? We could have had fun with the whole thing. When I mentioned trading Branch or Graham, I was treated with complete and utter disrespect and yet if a respondent said that's the same as trading Brady for a #1 draft pick, you hold that individual in a place of respect. The thought police are alive and well, all hail censorship. To the one or two who actually welcomed me aboard and countered my thoughts with actual alternatives, I salute you and thank you with all my heart.

 

[patsox23]

Calling people oon stupid, baseless posts does not constitute censorship.

 

[pats1]

Flying Fungi - You might be surprised, but I appreciate you correcting me on the draft choice and where it came from. When I originally put up the thread I thought it would be something that would provoke thought and discussion and in one or two instances, it did, but unfortunately, the vast majority of respondents didn't. I've been referred to as junior, newbie, and still others that would post a picture of a dog defecating to describe what they think of my proposal. If you look at the original post at the end I wrote out of complete and utter respect for the participants in this forum, "what do you think?" How naive I was to think that, particularly from the "senior" members, they might start off with, "welcome to the forum." And, if they disagreed, to state why. I thought the give and take would be delightful. Unfortunately, I've run into vigilantes, mob rule, people who want to ban threads, limit thought, a "think like me or you're gone attitude." Look back at the original post, was it truly worth piling on? We could have had fun with the whole thing. When I mentioned trading Branch or Graham, I was treated with complete and utter disrespect and yet if a respondent said that's the same as trading Brady for a #1 draft pick, you hold that individual in a place of respect. The thought police are alive and well, all hail censorship. To the one or two who actually welcomed me aboard and countered my thoughts with actual alternatives, I salute you and thank you with all my heart.

My God, we've heard this act before:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=28087

Well this experience has been a true disappointment. I was all excited to talk PATS football with fellow fans upon discovering this Board so I signed up. Then after receiveng the kind welcoming in the next paragraph from the proprietors of this Board, I felt like a family member and hanging out in a place that i could call home, even though i no longer live in Boston.

I make a few posts (none of them hateful or ill-mannered and then BANG!

I get nothing but vindictave insults thrown my way. I am beside myself and I just can’t believe we live in a society where people behave so badly toward one another. Some of you should be ashamed.

Of course, it only took a week until he revealed his true colors:

To you that may not matter as the point is I pretended to be a PATS fan. Once again I will apologize for trying to just have fun. Most trolls are extremely mean spirited and resort to blatant name calling as their M.O. is to insult the Board. I figured it was a dead giveaway because I asked PATS fans after a lengthy winning streak why they were giving up? Obviously it's a joke. My claims to be a PATS fan just extended the joke.

 

[Owl]

Patsox23. I apologize with all my heart for misspelling David Patten's name, but there are probably worse things in this world, like maybe stating that I don't know how to respond to something and then going on and on and on. I'll admit my faults, will you? My assumptions or projections concerned the New England Patriots Football Team. I never once entered this thread with the intention of attacking somebody on a personal level, but have myself been attacked, personally, for what? Ideas? How absurd. Disagree, pick apart, offer alternatives, but attack personally, how sad. BTW, I am not 16 years old, so I must be a troll (another of your classy comments). I remember when the Patriots would get down by the goal line and they were thinking of having the QB run a bootleg, Babe Parilli would come out and Yewcic would replace him. Back in the day, Geno was my favorite receiver, though I would also root for Colclough and Romeo. Why don't we just strike up a deal. You spend the rest of your life correcting my spelling and I'll give it my best to try to teach you how to respect others, even when you disagree with them. I'm sure most people will agree I have the tougher job.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Unfortunately newbies (and we were all that once) or trolls or casual fans looking for gentle discussion need to understand something about the dynamics of a message board. If you put your opinion out there, particularly in a seperate thread dedicated to it, you are basically asking others for their opinion on it. That opinion may be that you are a lightweight casual poster, a football neophyte, or just a bored nonsensical ports fan poster intent on lowering the bar to suit their own comfort level on what has been for a while now one of the more intelligent football message boards on the net - particularly where our own home team is concerned - either inadvertently, stubbornly, diliberately, or malliciously.

I know I for one read and lurked here for some time before becomming an active poster, gauging the tenor of the existing board and deciding if I was comfortable participating in it as it existed. And I have learned a lot reading here. Some don't seem inclined to learn anything, and are more intent on defending their right to simply have an opinion that others should not challenge. And more often than not they do this via starting a thread as opposed to simply adding their thoughts to an existing thread. The attempts to paint someone as a troll or delusional or immature, along with the name calling, are mostly born of frustration on the part of long standing posters for whom this becomes basically redundant garbage that has been dealt with a dozen times already in the last few months. Senior members (LOL - it's just a posting total differential over 100) certainly need to reign that in, while newbies or juniors need to accept that their own behavior often drives the responses they get.

We've never all gotten along absolutely swimmingly, but it didn't used to be this confrontational. Whether a senior, junior, newbie or troll, xpect to defend your opinions rather than simply defending the right to have one or bashing or even mocking those that differ, and I think we'd all be better off in the long run.

One more word to the wise - most people come here to discuss the team. That has tended to entail more of a desire to figure out or understand what we might be doing and why as opposed to opining on what they should or better be doing. IMHO. This team is run by geniuses. A good rule of thumb is to criticize them sparingly at your own risk. After all they've only won 3 Lombardi's in their first 6 seasons here.

 

[chowder]

might as well trade brady while we're at it...

yeah, or better yet... let's trade our whole team for the Jets whole team straight up! lol

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Owl: As another new person at this particular site, let me say 'welcome'.

Please understand that the point that Patsox and others are trying to make in their own individual styles is that the topics of trading Branch and Grambo, as well as picking up Patten, have been absolutely beaten to death, burned to the ground, crushed, mangled and twisted for months at this site.

In other words, you picked an unfortunate time to bring up a topic which is no longer of interest to anyone. This is not your fault, of course, but the general consensus amoung those that are senior to this site is that newbies should show restraint in posting new topics. Try to get a feel for which subjects are currently worth discussing, and which are old news before posting.

We have some newbies who are posting like five threads an hour, which is angering people around here. I think you just happened to get caught in the crossfire, and it is probably not worth trying to argue your way out of the situation, just give up this new thread with an old topic, and move on! The topic happens to be really stale, and everyone has been fixing for a fight around here. :singing:

For any further advice on newbies, I'm probably the wrong guy to ask....

 

[VJCPatriot]

If this is just an old troll posting under a new alias I will be pissed. We'll know soon enough if he starts popping up more inane threads all over the place.

 

[CrazyDave]

If this is just an old troll posting under a new alias I will be pissed. We'll know soon enough if he starts popping up more inane threads all over the place.

I have a hard time believing anyone would post something like this who was actually serious.
I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

 

[3 to be 4]

i think we are being a little too hard on Owl. I mean, David Patten as your #1 receiver seems reasonable to me. maybe they could pickup Henry Ellard to be the #2 guy.

 

[patsox23]

Owl, if you're sincere, my apologies if you feel attacked. I find the premise of this thread juvenile and silly. TRADE Branch, Graham and Neal? That's patently, empirically silly. There is NO WAY that will happen and dedicating a thread to it, as you did, is beneath the standards of what we've come to expect at this, a site unique in its dearth of that exact kind of post. THAT is why you've gotten the reaction, not because "we've had enough Branch posts." It's a complete NON-STARTER, it will never happen.

 

[Seymour93]

Here's one:

No posting allowed during the hours of 9 PM and 6 AM Saturday night and Sunday morning.

:eat2:

What about posting at 3:35 AM on a Monday morning? Is this still legal?