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Israel Bombs Civilians on Gaza Beach

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by wistahpatsfan, Jun 9, 2006.

  1. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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  2. patsfan13

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    When the Israeli's kill civilians it is accidental cause they're targeting military targets and the terrorist kill civilians on purpose cause the civilians are the target???
  3. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Basically that Israel wouldn't be killing anyone if others weren't trying to kill them.
  4. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    It has been pointed out that one groups Freefom fighters are another groups terrorists...but I have not read the details in this case to see how/if this applies...
  5. DarrylS

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    One of those perception things, some will say they were protecting their border other will say it is an act of Terrorism.
  6. DeanPatsFan

    DeanPatsFan Rookie

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    When's the last time an Israeli strapped a bomb to himself and blew up a bus full of civilians, or drove a car laden with explosives into a crowded market or hijacked an airplane, killing passengers, or shot an elderly man in a wheelchair and threw his body over the railing of a cruise ship?

    The Israeli's are choirboys compared to these filthy animals.
  7. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    When was the last time a country dropped a nuclear bomb and vaporized thousands???
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2005
  8. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Our "Love Affair" with Israel is the reason that every Muslim on this planet hates us. I can say this because I am nobody, nobody gives a sh!t what I say, but, if you are a "Celebrity" if you are a "Prominent Buisness Man" in America and you say this your life is over, you will be forever branded a "Bigot" and an "Anti Semite".

    What is this strangle hold that this tiny little country Israel holds over America, we treat Israel as though it was some kind of "Magical Paradise" that we should all get down on our knees and worship and never ever speak ill of, we treat it's people as though they were Gods, we dare not criticize them for anything less we become branded as Racists for the rest of our lives. In the eyes of America Israel can do no wrong, why is this, we are free to say or do anything we please about other country's but mention Israel in a negative way and your life is ruined.

    Wouldn't you think that Streisand, Nick Berg, ACLU Lawyers, Hollywood, Jerry "Scum" Springer, Al Franken, All The Liberals that LOVE Israel, ect ect, wouldnt you think they would be backing America in this war.
    America is at war with the Savages that want Israel wiped off the earth.

    WHY ARE SO MANY AMERICAN JEWS ANTI WAR, ANTI BUSH AND ANTI AMERICAN?

    IF AMERICA SHOULD LOSE THE WAR, IF AMERICA SHOULD STOP WIPING ISRAELS ASS, THE FIRST THING THE MUSLIM RELIGION WILL DO IS SLAUGHTER EVERY JEW THEY CAN GET THEIR GREASY HANDS ON.

    WHY IS A PIG LIKE STREISAND SO DOWN ON AMERICA, WE ARE PROTECTING HER HOMELAND AND HER PEOPLE.

    ISRAEL IS THE REASON WE ARE AT WAR BUT FEW DARE SAY IT.
  9. patsfan13

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    IIRC it was after they were the victims of a sneak attack by a country that had murdered over a quarter of a million civilians in one city in a massacre, run a camp (google camp 751 sometime), march ag group of prisioners on a 'death march', forced tens of thousand women into prostution to service their solders.
  10. DeanPatsFan

    DeanPatsFan Rookie

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    Exactly. The blame America first crowd loves to bring up the attrocity of nuking Nagasaki and Hiroshima but NEVER mention the barbarism of Imperial Japan.
  11. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    I totally agree. Hirohito and his junta might have been worse than Hitler if they hdn't bombed Pearl Harbor. That was their undiong in the long run, and Yamamoto knew it would be. I see no comparison between the US and Israel as far as this goes. There are, of course, plenty of other comparisons.

    Strapping a bomb to a guy and sending him into a restaurant is the same as lobbing rockets onto a beach full of civilians. The Palestinians will admit they did it on purpose, but the Israelis will claim it was an accident. No matter...it has the same effect.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2005
  12. DeanPatsFan

    DeanPatsFan Rookie

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    There's no way Israel targeted innocent civilians. Unlike terrorism, it was a mistake.
  13. patsfan13

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    The reference to Japan and moral equilavence was brought into the conversation by Pats726. I agree it wasn't germain to the issue you raise.

    IMO the Israeli's don't lie about their intentions, YMMV. I also believe that Hamas and Hezbullah will use innocents as human shields to protect themselves from the ISraeli's.
  14. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    I don't know what YMMV means. Translate, please. As usual, I have no problem with the Israeli people. I've met a few and they seem like real nice folks. It's their government that makes me want to puke. They're so self-righteous and whenever they pull crap like this, they get off because Americans buy the notion that they are the victims and their heinous acts are only in the interest of self defense in every single case. I'm not willing to go along with the tired old line.
  15. Turk

    Turk Rookie

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by patsfan13
    IIRC it was after they were the victims of a sneak attack by a country that had murdered over a quarter of a million civilians in one city in a massacre, run a camp (google camp 751 sometime), march ag group of prisioners on a 'death march', forced tens of thousand women into prostution to service their solders.



    So, it is your claim that under certain conditions, it is okay to commit terrorism.

    Isn't that what the terrorist Arabs are saying?
  16. Turk

    Turk Rookie

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    You would be shocked to see the difference in reporting between European press and their American counterparts, when it comes to Israel.
    I have to admit, Harry is right on this one.
    Israeli atrocities, the shooting of Arab children with real bullets for throwing rocks, the Jews for Peace movement, the Israeli pilots that were brought up in front of a military court for treason for refusing to drop bombs on innocent Arabs, the peace activists that were run over by Israeli soldiers, the pregnant Arab woman whose car was run over by an Israeli tank all got zero coverage here in the US.
    When was the last time a Palestinian refugee camp was covered by a news team. If the shoe were on the other foot and it was a camp for displaced Jews, would there have been coverage in the press?
    My guess is yes, every day.
    Meanwhile, European attitudes have changed drastically about Israel in the last 2-3 decades, because they are not afraid to broadcast both sides.
    While we all support Israel's right to exist, being by anyone's side right or wrong is just wrong and in this case has helped our isolation.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2006
  17. DarrylS

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    You sound convinced, unlike many of us, have not seen a compelling argument that it is not. I can not give them the benefit of the doubt as or now, this has happened too many times.
  18. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Times are changing, a few years ago I would have been run off this board for Posting what I did, the FBI would have been tracking me down and my wife would have left me.

    You can call a Swede a "Swede" but don't ever call a Jew a "Jew".

    Why is this :confused: :confused:

    Hollywood is run by Eskimos :rocker:
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2005
  19. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    YMMV= your milage may vary

    The Isreal/Palusenian issue is one, that I'm not sure there is a resolution to for a variety of reasons.
  20. Mainefan

    Mainefan Rookie

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    You can call a Swede a Swede Harry, and you can call a Jew a Jew.

    But no one has been trying for 2000 years to exterminate the Swedes.

    Anyhow, you can't group either peoples. They're all individuals and they represent a very wide range of opinion.

    But I wonder how we would do--any of us--if we lived in a country smaller than New Jersey, if there were 5 million of us, and we were surrounded by neighbors 20 times our size (one of which is probably developing an atomic bomb) who had sworn to obliterate us.

    I wonder how we handle the possibility of being blown to smithereens while eating pizza at the corner pizzaria or attending a wedding or sitting in your living room, watching TV. I wonder how we would feel if each of us knew people--civilians, women, children--who were killed not for what they did, but for who they are.

    I can think of few situations in which we would learn more if we spent an hour in the other person's shoes. By the way, the Palestinians deserve to live in peace as well. Do they want to? Are they willing to? If so, why did they put Hamas into office?

    As for the tragedy in Gaza, that's just what it was. Israel does not and has not, to my knowledge, targeted civilians. But, collateral damage happens, as we should know as well as anyone. It is sickening and reprehensible, even when not intended.
  21. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Why do they try to exterminate them, why do their neighbors hate them?

    Why can't we all just get along (Peace Activist Rodney King) Rodney shortly after giving this brilliant statement for the Media then went home and broke both his wifes arms.
    :bricks:
  22. Mainefan

    Mainefan Rookie

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    I'm not sure, Harry. What are you implying? Willing to say it outright?
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2005
  23. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Last edited: Jun 11, 2006
  24. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    SURE,
    I have never understood why the American people have to treat Jewish people as though they were different from the rest of us, why is it permissable to joke, and say almost anything about Italian, Irish, British, Canadain, Scottish, or any White Christian group but the minute the Jewish word is brought up we are considered Anti Semites, Bigots, Racists and sub humans that should be shot.

    WHY IS IT A MORTAL SIN TO SPEAK ABOUT THE JEWISH?

    I happen to be Irish, when someone calls us a "Harp" or "A bunch of drunks" we laugh.

    If someone says the word "Jew" they have committed a terrible sin.

    WHY?
  25. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Israel is and has been a fairly radical state, but part of that stems from its grave distrust of its neighbors and the west. Even now, many in Israel believe that anti-semitism in France and Russia could mushroom out of control. In the early days of Israel's existence, the Jews simply did not trust the west to defend their state unless it was in the west's interest. The radicals in Israel devised ways to split the west and Arabs as a matter of survival. Now that the U.S. seems to be a loyal ally, I think Israel is a little more aboveboard, but let's face it, they're going to do what it takes to survive the threats from Iran and others. It's not every country that has a powerful neighbor promising to wipe them off the map.

    Israel has every right to exist at this point, since most of its people were born there, but the U.S. could defend that right while at the same time adapting a more even foreign policy in the region.

    The main reason America sides with Israel is that Jews have played a major role in the growth of America, are an important constituency, and have done a great job building alliances. In addition, Israel stays completely instep to our foreign policy in the region, so it does help protect our interests in many ways. Just take a look at the NATO membership (Turkey, Bulgaria, Estonia), and you'll see that military alliances take strange forms. Had we not been more allied with Israel, the same genocide that the west started under Hitler might have been completed by the Arabs, which would look rather bad. Plus, even if that happened, there's no reason to believe that the Middle East would be much different. The west has had a knack for f@cking up the region for a lot longer than Israel has existed.
  26. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I have just invented a new big word, "ANTI IRISHISM".

    Will anyone accused of Anti Irishism lose their job?
  27. Mainefan

    Mainefan Rookie

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    The reason, Harry Boy, lies with the Exodus, the Inquisition, the Pogroms and the Holocaust.

    I suspect you'd also be a little bit sensitive if people had been trying for 2000 years, with middling success, to exterminate the Irish.

    But here are some important facts to consider:

    *Israel--right now--is almost half Arab, and I'm talking about Israeli citizens now, not Palestinians.

    *American Jews are Americans first, Jews second. While most of them have a strong interest in Israel's survival and well-being, just as American Irish have affectionate feeling for Ireland, there is a wide diversity of opinion among American Jews about the Israeli government, ranging from total disapproval to total approval.

    * I think American Jews are a lot more comfortable with being confronted with their Jewishness than they were, say, 50 years ago. Back then, it was still dangerous to be identified as a Jew in many countries and there was plenty of institutional anti-Semitism here. But as America has become more and more multicultural, the Jews have felt less and less a target.

    But sensitivity remains, as do memories, and the memories of anti-Semitic violence are easily revived by people such as the current president of Iran. So there is always an element of insecurity to being Jewish, usually below the surface.

    I don't think anything comparable exists with any other national or ethnic groups, although God knows, each has its cross to bear--the enslavement of Blacks, long ended but not forgotten and the persistent prejudice against anyone of color, the stereotyping of Italians with crime, the prejudice against Asian peoples, the memory of the days when "No Irish" was a common sentiment in employment or rentals--every ethnic group has reasons to be alert.

    But the Jews occupy a unique position. In part because they were and are unwilling to accept Christ, they have been the object of fear and hatred for centuries. They are a continuing challenge to Christian beliefs and they have paid dearly for their stubbornness. Today, however, the battle is not between Christians and Jew, but between Moslems on one side and Christians and Jews on the other side. Still, the old memories linger.

    And that, in part, is why you're in sensitive territory when you start criticizing Israel, no matter how much it may deserve the criticism, or when you point out Jewish influence in the US. The observations may be both accurate and innocent, but they bear a striking resemblance to what was said before the last wave of violence was unleashed against the Jews.

    Does this make it clearer for you, Harry?
  28. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yes, and I thought it was very interesting, I read this post twice, I am not as close minded as some may think.
  29. PatsFanInVa

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    August 9, 1945.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2005
  30. PatsFanInVa

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    I liked most of your points, Mainefan, but this one is just plain bizarre. I can only assume you're talking about Sephardic Jews; that would be a bit disingenuous. Counting Sephardic Jews as Non-Arab (that is, counting "Jew" as an ethnic group other than Arab, for purposes of demographics,) you find 80% Jews in the state of Israel.

    (From the CIA World Fact Book:)
    Jewish 80.1% (Europe/America-born 32.1%, Israel-born 20.8%, Africa-born 14.6%, Asia-born 12.6%), non-Jewish 19.9% (mostly Arab) (1996 est.)

    It's best not to throw fuel on the various anti-Israel fires out there.

    I find it ironic that we as Americans are so concerned to find ways to extricate our soldiers from such a panoply of outrageous acts (from a human rights perspective,) yet we are so critical of our allies' behaviour in the case of Israel -- and only in that case.

    It's looking more and more like Haditha was a My Lai style plain-old massacre; time will tell, of course. But Israelis don't target beach-goers at random. Yes, they are well acquainted with dilemmas like "You get the terrorist, but you also get whoever else is around...", dilemmas the United States does not give a second thought to. But what the Israelis have not had for many decades, is the sort of intentional rampage against civilians it looks like we in the US now must account for. The more that comes out, the more it looks that way.

    And when the U.S.'s policy is called to account? "Well you don't understand. We have to fight terrorism, you see, this new thing that's started happening since 2001."

    Israel's been fighting that battle as a state since the 1940s, and as a community since around the turn of the century, and has done an admirable job, it should be emphasized.

    Now all that said, NO, there is no excuse for the mistake. But don't be idiot enough to read it as an intentional act (like a squad swarming through a village and shooting people point blank, for instance.)

    I await the findings on both incidents....

    But to tie this all up with a neat little bow: Bear in mind we're dealing with two nations (Israel and the U.S.) which target combatants and sometimes miss (and sometimes, on an individual soldier level, evidently lose composure.)

    Our opponents target non-combatants specifically, because they do not believe they can win against combatants -- at least that is the case for the enemies of Israel; in the case of the Iraqi insurgency, it is more of a mixed bag. Still, they do not scruple at the taking of the lives of the defenseless, something Israel and the U.S. do not do at the policy level, and punish at the individual level.

    To draw an equivalency there is tantamount to justifying your own murder at the hands of such an "insurgency." Basically, you are excusing intentional military actions against noncombatants, of which you are one.

    This is a good thing to bear in mind when one is most vociferously championing the causes of terrorists.

    That said - yes, Palestine should, and one day will - be a state. And I do not think that will stop the murders either.

    PFnV
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2005

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