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Is this what OWS thinks of America?

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by KDPPatsfan85, Oct 16, 2011.

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  1. KDPPatsfan85

    KDPPatsfan85 In the Starting Line-Up

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    #51 Jersey

  2. Patters

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    I guess some of them do think that. I have some sympathy for them. This country needs some big changes. It's time to stand up to Wall Street and a government (including Obama) that chronically kowtows to Wall Street and big money at the expense of everyone else. Walking on the flag is not anti-American. In fact, it's pro-American because it has everything to do with freedom of speech and freedom of expression. It's a powerful way of saying that country has lost its way, and shoving the false patriotism of the right wing right back in its ugly face. In a sense, walking on the American flag is to the right wing what birthers are to the left wing.
     
  3. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    And with President and Mrs. Bush, too.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    Let's see if you and 13 are a combined 3-for-3 when it comes to your posts about phots being frauds.

    And if you are, let's see if one of you simply owns up to it and apologizes - it wouldd be the first time of the three.

    You're Michelle Obama link is also bs, unless you've learned to read lips, but that's how a few of you partisan righties here operate -- keep repeating the lies, hoping somebody else believes it at some point.

    As for OWS, I'm sure some of them do hate America. I think you find a few nutjobs in any segment of the population.

    Of course, walking on the flag can also be symbolic of a love for America, but I wouldn't expect you to understand that, since you don't seem to understand much about the principles that underlie America.
     
  5. KDPPatsfan85

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    I do agree our country needs some changes. The change we are getting from obama is not what we wanted. bush is no different. In fact, Bush and obama is one in the same. I understand that its their right to walk or burn flags, but as someone who served in the military, that really pisses me off because so many people died defending that flag. That flag represents America. Wall Street and Government are in cohoots with each other. Government bailed out wall street. I dont understand why people are just protesting Wall Street. The source of all of this IS the government. Why not protest at the White House? Wall Street donated the majority of money to Obama's 2008 campaign. why cant people see that Obama IS Wall Street. Why are people wasting time at wall street when they should be asking for the resignation of Obama. Obama is a Jimmy Carter/Richard Nixon hybrid. Wondering where all of our tax payer money is going. Its going to companies that are failing such as solyndra and all of these other failing companies. But, they are seeing the money because they have a connection to either obama, reid, or pelosi. Our money is going to countries that hate us. Maybe instead of sending money to foreign countries and these failing companies, why dont we take care of our country first! We are in more wars than we were before 2008. Its time to take our country back.
     
  6. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

  7. Patters

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    I think we see the flag as being supposed to represent the US, but it now represents the powerful economic special interests and the bought Washington, DC establishment. While there are some left wingers who still have disdain for the troops, that's changed an awful lot over the years, and I think in general that since the 1960s the left has done a good job making it clear their anger is directed at policy, not troops. One of the issues I have with troops is that they are pandered to all the time. The reality is that those of us who have served have never really thought of the idea of flag as something to defend; we see our troops as defending the nation. The flag is clearly a different kind of symbol to soldiers than it is to civilians. I think that's a problem that the military brass should address. To my way of thinking, you never defended the flag, but you defended the nation (which is far more important).

    The last time we had something like OWS was in the 1960s. During that era, the social movements won civil rights, women's rights, set the stage for gay rights, laid ended the Vietnam War, and changed American values to be more liberal and open-minded. As a result of the 1960s, LBJ stepped down and Humphrey lost to Nixon. But, the movement was so strong it didn't matter. After all, it was Nixon who was forced to end the Vietnam War and it was during his reign that women's rights and gay rights began. From a purely political view, OWS is very good news for the Republicans. If it continues to grow as a movement, Obama will be fairly irrelevant. OWS is as much against DC as it is against Wall Street, but believes that the problem starts on Wall Street, not in DC.
     
  8. KDPPatsfan85

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    #51 Jersey

    DC has already bailed out Wall Street once. Wall Streets thinking that if they fail then DC will bail them out again. The problem starts in DC. If you can take care of the problem in DC then you cut safety net that wall street has!!
     
  9. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Wall Street runs DC, not the other way around. Wall Street buys and manipulates the politicians. We had high hopes that Obama would be much braver in standing up to Wall Street, but instead he brought in an economic crew that was not much different than the crew that preceded him. Clearly, protests against Washington have done nothing to stop Wall Street's abuses, and the Supreme Court has now made incredibly easy for corporations to buy America's political system, and they are doing just that. A global movement that goes after Wall Street has a chance of shaking the foundations enough that we see real change.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2011
  10. DarrylS

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    The whole concept of Power and who really runs this country.. that is why the 99% movement is so important.
     
  11. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    Accoring to that logic, saying "America sucks" or making any kind of statement whatsoever is pro-American because it's an exercise of free expression. I guess someone holding an anti-gay rally is as American as apple pie and the girl next door, huh?

    You know how I'm always saying that liberals hate America? It's posts like this which totally prove my point.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2011
  12. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    That sure looks photoshopped to me. Do you have any reputable website that shows that picture?
     
  13. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    Actually, it could be -- all depends on the intent of the speaker. I know that's baffling to somebody who has no idea what America is about.


    Actually, the ability to hold that rally certainly is American.

    and, sadly, the bigoted mindset underlying it is fairly American, too, though fortunately those bigots are continuing to dwindle as a % of the population.


    The real question is why you and your brethren have such contempt for America and Americans.
     
  14. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Absolutely correct. The clash of political ideas is as American as can be. I probably think your political views are as wrongheaded as you think mine are, and I respect that. That's what jmakes America great.

    And the other side of the coin is there are people like you who say people who protest in ways that you don't approve of are unAmerican. Well one could say that's a way to hate America too, to disrespect our legacy of freedom and democracy, which won us so many of our hard earned gains. As much as I have disagreed with the Tea Partiers, I don't think I ever criticized them for mobilizing. I respect that. I think America needs more of that. If anything, I was envious of the Tea Partiers for going out and speaking up, but now it's liberals and leftists doing the same, and the right is showing its disdain for our freedom of expression. Shame! Shame!
     
  15. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    Well I have to say I disagree with that line of reasoning. I'm glad to live in a country with free speech where people are free to hate their own country and absolutely nowhere have I said this speech should be prohibited (though I do think they should have to get permits and go through the process like any other group). But if someone talks about how much they hate America, I'm not going to get all weepy eyed at what a wonderful patriot that person is.

    IOW, I'm glad they have the freedom of speech but I'm not going to kiss their asses like you do when they bash the United States.
     
  16. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    In the same sense you might consider me a 'hater,' I might consider you a 'hater,' I suppose. No one is talking about how much they hate America, except perhaps those Tea Partiers like Rick Perry who talked about secession or Andrew Breitbart who suggested at a Tea Party gathering that maybe it was time for guns. Just as you won't kiss the asses of the left, I won't kiss the asses of the right, who I believe have a lot of hate for modern America.
     
  17. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    Seems to have originated at Reuters....

    September 11, 2006, President Bush and first lady Laura Bush stand on a carpet of the American flag at Ground Zero in Manhattan, the site of the September 11, 2001 attack. Section 8b of the Flag Code reads, " The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground..." Photo credit: Reuters/Jason Reed

    Flag Rules and Regulations

    Just to keep it honest - no one ever suggested the photos which were posted by KDD and 13 were photoshopped - they just weren't from the place they said they were.

    edited to add: I'm checking it out as best I can. There seems to be some opinion that it might have been photoshopped - but there is equal opinion that it has not been. It's from 2006 or so, so it's hard to check back on google. Left wing sites say it's real, right wing sites say it's photoshopped - go figure. I found it in a Rueters slide show - Reuters is generally pretty upright.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2011
  18. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    Funny you say it started at Reuters but then provide a link that isn't a Reuters link.
    And since we're being honest, let me put in a bit of honesty of my own. Very often, identical acts can have very different meanings based on the intent of the parties. You have to look at context and the intent of the individuals involves. For example, burning a flag is something people do to demonstrate strong opposition to a country (such as when we see a bunch of Muslims in the Middle East doing that). But also, at the same time, burning the flag is considered the acceptable and proper way to dispose of a flag.

    So in one case burning is meant as an insult and in another case it is an honorable way to dispose of a flag. Context.
     
  19. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    The Rueters slide show is shown there.

    I'll take it a step further and say that very identical acts can have very different meanings based on the intent of the viewer, as well.

    People see what they want to see, they believe what they want to believe. The same things seen from your perspective are going to look entirely different from mine in many cases.

    For instance, you see Wall Street protesters and you see a side of America, or people, that you, personally, don't like and have strong feelings about. I, obviously, have led a different life than you, know different people than you and I feel differently. While I do not like the flag-walkers and the Communist sign wavers, I also recognize that they are young - and I was once young, too. And I looked like these kids and I probably acted like many of them - and yet I grew up to be who I am, and regardless of what you may think, it turned out ok. I'm a respectable tax paying citizen and I do my share of whatever it is that needs to be done. As do you. As do all of us here from what I can tell.

    We want different things - that's ok. That's why we live in America, isn't it? So we can help pick which of those things we want by voting for people who most represent those ideals.

    Do we think each other to be wrong? Of course we do. What kind of "believers" would we be if we did not? But that should be ok, too.

    I just don't think that everyone present at Wall Street is a flag-stepping, Commie card carrying SOB. Nor do I think everyone at a Tea Party Rally is a racist, religious bigot. All groups are composed of individuals. All individuals have their own set of core beliefs and ideals. None of them are exactly alike.

    As you say, they all see things differently.

    All I'd like to do is see it recognized for what it is. An act of an individual. There's no sense in posting a picture of one dude doing one thing and screaming, "Look what they're all doing," because they're NOT all doing it.
     
  20. Harry Boy

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