Is this team physical enough to win?

[Coach42]

I think the Pats have a chance this year to change the perception of being a "soft" team. For me a teams reputation of being physical comes from the defense not the offense. I think both the early 00's Chiefs and recent Saints teams illustrate the point I'm trying to make. Both of those teams had great O Lines and were very strong running teams yet the reputation of those teams were as "soft".

The Ravens on the other hand maintained the reputation as a physical team with some real sub par offensive lines. They earned this rep with a tough, aggressive, attacking defense. The Patriots have not had an aggressive defense for years for several reasons. Lack of talent, continuity, and playing from in front with passive "safe" play calling has eroded the team's, for lack of a better word, swagger. If this preseason is any indication this year might be different. With some luck in the health department they might be able to attack the offense for the first time in years.

Hopefully that will be the end of our vanilla defense days. When a team is aggressive defensively I think it really breeds a feeling of toughness that works its way through the whole team. The attitude of the Patriots championship teams was that they could beat anyone because they were the tougher more physical team. I hope this is a the beginning of a new "toughness" era.

 

[BTTA]

1. Please present the evidence that this is a broadly held perception, and by whom.

2. The Pats are very happy to have other teams spend time thinking this way. When, for example, LT leads the Jets through a "They finesse, we physical" pregame chant, it sets the Jets players up for failure. You can be sure that Pats aren't having a pregame chant that focuses on the Jets at all. They are focused on their own performance, on concentrating on each play.

3. On the other hand, if you are speaking to a perception held by people who aren't on the field as opponents of the Pats, don't bother, because it is irrelevant to anything the Pats are doing or care about.

4. "Swagger" is a set of behaviors that reflect a mindset that the Pats coaches abhor, because it is a distraction from focusing on the things that lead to winning.

I think the Pats have a chance this year to change the perception of being a "soft" team.

Lack of talent, continuity, and playing from in front with passive "safe" play calling has eroded the team's, for lack of a better word, swagger.

The attitude of the Patriots championship teams was that they could beat anyone because they were the tougher more physical team.

 

[Coach42]

1. Please present the evidence that this is a broadly held perception, and by whom.

2. The Pats are very happy to have other teams spend time thinking this way. When, for example, LT leads the Jets through a "They finesse, we physical" pregame chant, it sets the Jets players up for failure. You can be sure that Pats aren't having a pregame chant that focuses on the Jets at all. They are focused on their own performance, on concentrating on each play.

3. On the other hand, if you are speaking to a perception held by people who aren't on the field as opponents of the Pats, don't bother, because it is irrelevant to anything the Pats are doing or care about.

4. "Swagger" is a set of behaviors that reflect a mindset that the Pats coaches abhor, because it is a distraction from focusing on the things that lead to winning.

Lol I don't know what to say if you haven't heard that people generally consider the Ravens tough. So that takes care of 1. 2 and 3 really have nothing to do with what I posted. 4 is just wrong.

 

[reflexblue]

Not your best work, Ochmed. I'll just leave it at that.

i think hes right about the offensive line. Its been good enough to win a lot of games in the regular season, but when they go up against the top teams with very good D-lines they get man handled. It will happen again this year, the pats O-line will win 12 games or so in the regular season but won't be able to stand up against the better, more physical defensive front lines in the playoffs. i think the pats defense has been good enough to win the SB, the Oline has always let them down.

 

[QB12]

i think hes right about the offensive line. Its been good enough to win a lot of games in the regular season, but when they go up against the top teams with very good D-lines they get man handled. It will happen again this year, the pats O-line will win 12 games or so in the regular season but won't be able to stand up against the better, more physical defensive front lines in the playoffs. i think the pats defense has been good enough to win the SB, the Oline has always let them down.

I happen to agree with this assessment.

 

[SVN]

I think they are tough physically. Mentally we dont know because every season is different with a different set of players .But this team has long missed players with attitude and leadership on defense like rodney/bruschi/vrabel. Neither vince or mayo have that kind of nature. We have missed that in the past. No Rex ryan or cromartie or revis wouldve gotten away with saying all crap about the pats players without rodney responding. Of course these things mean less on the field but it can build an attitude in the team.

 

[SVN]

Lol I don't know what to say if you haven't heard that people generally consider the Ravens tough. So that takes care of 1. 2 and 3 really have nothing to do with what I posted. 4 is just wrong.

There was a game vs the Packers in 2002 when faulk took a lateral pass and dropped it and didnt go back to pick it up and they turned the ball over and lost. After the game faulk mentioned lack of 'swagger' to the team and BB went ballistic about swagger stuff that it was overrated and all that.

 

[littleteapot]

How come when the pats get messed with physically (afc championship game against the ravens) its because they got injured, but when they impose their will on a team (divisional game against the texans) its just because they are the best. The fact is that every team deals with injuries and if you have a few important players go down, you should still be able to execute.

Do people know that the Texans defense was missing basically their entire starting linebacker corps (which by the way had been very good when healthy), including All-Pro linebacker Brian Cushing. I don't think anyone here buys that excuse for why they got killed inthe playoffs. By the way the 2nd and 3rd stringers Houston was putting out there still should have played more physical. They should have been throwing Vereen and Hernandez and all the other guys who embarrassed them to the ground coming off the line, they should've been piling on anyone who got tackled near them. That's how you beat the Patriots, and Houston gets no more excuse for screwing up than New England did a week later.

The Pats offense was great last year, and should be great this year. If you try to drop back, limit the damage and let them do their thing, they will punish you almost every time. But if you get in their face, shove the inside linemen around and get nasty with the skill players, you can make them into a beatable offense.

 

[Joker]

this team got outhit on both lines against the Ravens in the AFC Champ game....something has got to give here...either the D has to get more penetration or the O line needs to get more of a push than the stalemates they've been getting in the playoffs....

 

[manxman2601]

There was a game vs the Packers in 2002 when faulk took a lateral pass and dropped it and didnt go back to pick it up and they turned the ball over and lost. After the game faulk mentioned lack of 'swagger' to the team and BB went ballistic about swagger stuff that it was overrated and all that.

“It’s really embarrassing.IT really is. It’s embarrassing. Can’t hit the snap count. Can’t line up on side. There are holding penalties in the defensive passing game every week for key conversions. There are holding penalties on offense, giving the ball away like we don’t give a nuts about it. Just turn it over to ‘em. Leave the ball lying on the field there for five seconds while they come from 30 yards away to recover it. It’s just dumb football, fellas.

I’ll tell you one other thing too, I’ve read a couple of comments. Now, I don’t spend a lot of time reading the paper. I really don’t. but I do watch a little about what we say and what we think. I’ve seen a couple comments here, some of the players talking about we need to get our ‘swagger’ back. Our attitude back.....you know what? We didn’t have a ‘swagger’ last year. If you think about it, we didn’t have a swagger. What we had awas a sense of urgency, a sense of urgency about playing well, being smart, and capitalizing on every opportunity and situation that came our way….it wasn’t about a swagger. You can take that swagger and shove it up your ***, okay?!” - Bill Belichick, addressing the team during the Patriots 2003 season.

Bill Belichick: "You can take that swagger and shove it up your ***, okay?!"

 

[Mark Morse]

I think Detroit did us a huge favor. They played the game like it meant something! They played physical and had 9 or 10 guys in the box to stop the run. Our young WRs and TE learned a valuable lesson from this game and it didn't cost us a loss in the regular season. Do you think that Kenbrell Thomkins will learn anything from this game? How about the young players learning about ball protection?

If anything concerns me, it is the lack of depth on defense. They got blown out by Kellen Moore. Top pick Jamie Collins looked like what Bill Parcells called " A ball in high grass .... lost"! Secondary backups look slow. Wouldn't be surprised to see Adrian Wilson cut ... Tavon Wilson is not progressing. Special Team look like crap!

 

[Joker]

I think Detroit did us a huge favor. They played the game like it meant something! They played physical and had 9 or 10 guys in the box to stop the run. Our young WRs and TE learned a valuable lesson from this game and it didn't cost us a loss in the regular season. Do you think that Kenbrell Thomkins will learn anything from this game? How about the young players learning about ball protection?

If anything concerns me, it is the lack of depth on defense. They got blown out by Kellen Moore. Top pick Jamie Collins looked like what Bill Parcells called " A ball in high grass .... lost"! Secondary backups look slow. Wouldn't be surprised to see Adrian Wilson cut ... Tavon Wilson is not progressing. Special Team look like crap!

Thanks Mark...THIS is how the Patriot fan SHOULD look at things...with a critical eye yet still unmistakably a Patriot fan who CARES...

 

[Coach42]

There was a game vs the Packers in 2002 when faulk took a lateral pass and dropped it and didnt go back to pick it up and they turned the ball over and lost. After the game faulk mentioned lack of 'swagger' to the team and BB went ballistic about swagger stuff that it was overrated and all that.

Swagger/attitude/sense of urgency I think we're using different phrases but all mean the same thing. In your first post you replied how if Rodney was around the things that the Jets were saying would not go unnoticed. Then you replied with the post about BB yelling the team that they could shove swagger up their @$$. I think we all fundamentally agree its an attitude confidence thing, so like I said in my original post maybe swagger was the wrong word to use.

 

[voluntarysaftey]

Losses to Seattle, San Fran, Baltimore all prove the NE offense loses the LOS vs physical fronts and Brady hears footsteps....reinforced by the Detroit D line domination.
Why would anyone assume the problem is solved this year with the same O line, 2 less TEs, and a receiving corp fresh out of diapers.
On D....DT depth is nonexistant so it is all on the LBs. If the LBs can become play makers instead of play finishers, there may be some hope. But the thinness at DT is scary now.
As someone mentioned earlier, the yearly misfires in the secondary have depleted depth in several groupings. A top heavy roster IMO

Completely agree with this.
In our championship years, we had players that had a combination of:
playmaking/skill
confidence
passion/fire
leadership

I think when you add those up, it leads to individuals who get their teammates to elevate their game. When you see a top player putting their all out there; and you have a fear of that player chewing you out; it makes you play up to your potential.
Our 01-07 teams had players that fit that at every position. I don't think our current team has any of those players -- as great as Wilfork is, I don't see him as the leader that Bruschi, Law, Harrison, etc were.

 

[JMC00]

Clearly this thread was made because the offensive had a bad game against Detroit but i'm not getting why the D is getting hammered on.

The 1st team D actually played pretty good with Vince & Dennard out, McCourty playing less than half the snaps, Mayo playing less than a third of them and three rookies (2 in the secondary) playing half the snaps in that 1st Half.

After Detroit's first drive where they got the FG, they had 7 drives and the D only allowed 50 yards, 37 of them coming on one drive. Also held Detroit to 2 of 9 on 3rd down. The 2 came on Detroit's opening drive.

And they only allowed 10 points on the 3 turnovers that put Detroit in NE territory, which 2 of them started on the 19 and the 7.

 

[Joker]

every game has its share of revisionist history afterwards...actually, when you think about it, 13 points after FOUR turnovers of THAT nature should be considered a WIN by the defense

 

[supafly]

I wouldn't see any reason why they aren't physical enough to win. I think that is a popular misconception. How have we done vs PIT and BAL lately? Certainly very comparable...

They came pretty darn close by having a total of ONE game played past their elimination in the postseason the past 2 seasons, and they sure seem to win on a pretty consistent enough basis.

If the defense improves a bit more like they have in the past few seasons, then we should be even closer to having a more "physical" team. They did a pretty nice job of running the ball down a lot of teams' throats last year, right?

Wilfork, Spikes, Mayo, Gronk, Mankins, Vollmer and even Brady at times (for a QB) would certainly take some serious offense to this question.

 

[ATippett56]

Throughout TC and the preseason I am seeing a team that is too much about finesse and too little about physically imposing their will on an opponent.

I guess you forgot how bad the New England Patriots offensive line looked last preseason.

 

[ATippett56]

Throughout TC and the preseason I am seeing a team that is too much about finesse and too little about physically imposing their will on an opponent.

At least the New England Patriots rush defense improved last season: 9th total rushing yards allowed, 6th rushing yards per attempt versus 17th total rushing yards allowed, 24th rushing yards per attempt.

2012 New England Patriots Statistics & Players - Pro-Football-Reference.com

2011 New England Patriots Statistics & Players - Pro-Football-Reference.com

You don't improve rush defense if you are considered a "soft defense".

 

[UK_Pat37]

Anyone who thinks Adrian a wilson is getting cut needs to reasses themselves. It's not happening.

Pathetic overreactions like this thread are sadly the norm with a fan base not used to losing many games.

This team were plenty physical enough against Detroit when we demolished them on thanksgiving...they were a physical team then. We were torn apart in preseason by them that same year.

The starting defence looked fine. Depth is something people moan about every year and it becomes a non factor.

This team ran down teams throats last season and have had a rep for stuffing some of the best rushing attacks in the league. We are far from soft and it's stupid to say otherwise.