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Is the 3-4, read and react defence dead?


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aabtec

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Looking at how defences have changed. It seems to be that the 3-4 D is dead. D wins the SB and it has been 10 years since the Pats held the Lombardi. It may be time to start adopting a D that looks more the like the SB Giants/Seahawks rather than the the Pats have been playing.

Thoughts?
 
Uhh...The Pats did play the 3-4 last year.

They played at ton of their snaps in the 3-4; then went to Nickel. It's obvious they were two-gapping, as well.

Also, Ninkovich was the LB who'd drop back into coverage, same way Vrabel would. He often do this from the Nickel, too. Where he'd be the DE in a 4 man line, and he'd read the play to see if he was coming or going.
 
Looking at how defences have changed. It seems to be that the 3-4 D is dead. D wins the SB and it has been 10 years since the Pats held the Lombardi. It may be time to start adopting a D that looks more the like the SB Giants/Seahawks rather than the the Pats have been playing.

Thoughts?

Watching Pats DL lock up with opposing OL is always exciting.....waiting, watching, waiting, watching....more watching. And then the first down markers gets moved up the field.
I love me some chippin as well. Pats DEs chip with the best of them......and Manning chucks it for 400 yds. Simple strategy for offenses...just release a RB past Jones because he will be chipping, not rushing the passer.
 
First, the Pats are not a pure 3-4 or 4-3 defense. The defense morphs into a variety of sub packages, so you cannot attribute defensive failings to a particular scheme. The 3-4 is not the modern equivalent of the 4-6 defense, undone by a new offensive scheme. It can still work effectively.

Second, the Niners use a base 3-4. This is a very good explanation of that approach, and how it too morphs like the schemes employed by the Pats. Would you call the Niners an ineffective defense?

Defenses can only work within the range of capabilities of component players. If the linebacker corps is stacked with athletic players, then the defense works just fine. If you have more talented defensive linemen, then the 4-3 works. The Pats use sub packages to mask the weaknesses of certain players. The scheme is not the reason the Pats win or don't win Super Bowls, and they have worked with 4-3 defenses since 2004.
 
D wins the SB and it has been 10 years since the Pats held the Lombardi.
Asante and Welker each catch a pass and we win 2 SB in that time. It's way too simplistic to say we haven't won since 2004 - although it is true.

As for the subject, no, everthing is cyclical. Running games will come back as teams go smaller and faster to stop the pass. And 3-4 defense types will be cheaper to get now as teams look to copy what Seattle is doing.
 
We have been "multiple", to use BB's term, for some time, and haven't really run a predominant 3-4 since 2009 or 2010. However, we do tend to run a "read and react" defense, and reacting quickly enough to offenses to be effective is difficult. Attacking them and disrupting them seems to have somewhat more success these days. Whether that's a failure of personnel or of approach is something that I'm not sure can be answered, but the 3-4 teams that have had success recently all play a more aggressive and disruptive approach then BB does. The Pats use many of the same hybrid principles that the Seattle defense does, but are no where near as aggressive in their approach. Again, whether that's the problem, or it's more one of lack of adequate players, injury attrition, or poor fundamentals (tackling) is hard to say.
 
Ah. Much better.

I know... Pats do no wrong....questioning BB is sacrilege......the Pats D is always awesome....Manning's jersey was dirtied in the AFC Championship Game....yada yada
Foam Fingers Unite!!
 
I wouldn't say that it's dead. The problem right now is that way too many teams run it, compared to high schools and colleges that are actually coaching players up in it. Belichick has outright said that the major reason for the shift to primarily four-man fronts is because it's easier to teach to a young defense. He's also pointed out that, while the configuration of the front 7 has technically changed, they still run fundamentally similar concepts to what they used to. It isn't as dramatic of a change as you'd instinctively think.
 
I know... Pats do no wrong....questioning BB is sacrilege......the Pats D is always awesome....Manning's jersey was dirtied in the AFC Championship Game....yada yada
Foam Fingers Unite!!

The sorry thing is you think the reason why people ridicule and ignore you is because you're critical of BB/the Patriots.
 
I would like to add the fact that the typical 3-4 personell are heavier and slower, therefore are at a disadvantage againt fast running QBs.

With all these running QBs and 5 wide sets you cant really have that many fast linebackers ready to chase them down so the DL needs to be faster to handle them.

In other regards it seems like in this pass-era-football that the pass rush is at a premium and teams with good passrush gets alot out of it, perhaps moore than runstopping teams.
 
The Patriots defensive system works best with experienced players, how much experience is on the defensive side of the ball? Once these guys actually gel and get a feel for each other, the Patriots defensive will improve greatly.

That and stay healthy.
 
The Patriots defensive system works best with experienced players, how much experience is on the defensive side of the ball? Once these guys actually gel and get a feel for each other, the Patriots defensive will improve greatly.

That and stay healthy.

Kind of hard to do when they bring in 10 undrafted guys every year. It's been a revolving door.
 
The patriots' version of "sit back and let them get first down after first down/ bend but don't break" should be dead. Hopefully.

Hopefully BB has learned something from an aggressive defense that makes things happen. No sitting back in zone and letting the QB rip 10 to 15 yard passes of at his leisure. So pathetic. Today's QBs are too accurate to concede 10 yard pass plays.

Manning didn't break a sweat in the AFCCG and in the Superbowl Seattle broke him.

How many 5'9-5'10 zone corners did he draft in the 2nd and 3rd rounds? Butler? Wilhite? Wheatley? None of whom like to hit. Meanwhile Seattle takes an all pro in the 6th round! Not just a lucky pick, they can coach people up apparently. Pats seem to coach people down. Teach them not to look for the ball...wouldn't want to give up a long pass. So instead they concede passes unless a safety happens to be there. And get ripped to shreds by accurate QBs.
 
From Reiss' mailbag:

Q. Year after year we continue to see the best defensive team win the Super Bowl, yet our offseasons here in New England have been a pulsating lament about Tom Brady's lack of weapons. Enough! In the AFC title game Brady got the ball for eight drives (14 times the week before) and the Pats D stopped the Broncos ONCE (the one where the national anthem was still playing I think). If Brady gets the ball 10 times instead of eight the game changes dramatically, the weapons he has prove to be good enough and maybe New England is in the Super Bowl to face Seattle instead of the Broncos. Until the focus returns to a tough, physical, deep, talented defense we will all continue to fool ourselves into thinking Brady's lack of weapons stopped his Super Bowl ring collection. Doesn't Bill Belichick and staff see this? -- Dean (Rumford, Maine)

A. I think they do, Dean. Look at the significant investments they've made on that side of the ball in recent years -- the last four top draft picks were all on defense: defensive end Chandler Jones, linebacker Dont'a Hightower, linebacker Jamie Collins and safety Tavon Wilson. They extended the contracts of linebacker Jerod Mayo and defensive end Rob Ninkovich at significant dollars. They paid cornerback Aqib Talib at a high-end rate. I think there is solid personnel here and I expect more talent to be added to the mix in 2014. The question I have, and I don't really have an answer for it because it's at a level of X's and O's outside my box, is whether the scheme is the best fit for the personnel based on the way the game is played today. Pressuring opposing quarterbacks is critical and I wouldn't classify the Patriots' approach as a pressure D.

Q. Very impressed with Seattle's defensive ends. How do the Patriots defensive ends compare? Would you switch? -- Bob (Manchester, N.H.)

A. Bob, on the surface it seems like it's like comparing footballs to soccer balls because the ends are used in different ways. I'd be interested in a tape study that compares how the Seattle defensive ends were utilized in the Super Bowl compared to how the Patriots ends were utilized in the AFC Championship Game (I'll put it on the list and hope to get to it at some point). My initial sense is that we'd see the Patriots ends doing more chipping and sacrificing their initial rush to disrupt the timing of the passing game that way, whereas the Seahawks relied on the ends (coupled with physical play on receivers) to generate a rush to create that initial disruption. If the tape study confirmed that, it would reflect my perception of a difference in defensive philosophy between the clubs. I think Patriots defensive ends Chandler Jones and Rob Ninkovich are good players that any team would want. So I want to learn more about how they are being utilized in comparison to how a trend-setting defense like the Seahawks might utilize them.

New England Patriots Mailbag -- Seattle Seahawks show New England Patriots how it's done - ESPN Boston
 
We have been "multiple", to use BB's term, for some time, and haven't really run a predominant 3-4 since 2009 or 2010. However, we do tend to run a "read and react" defense, and reacting quickly enough to offenses to be effective is difficult. Attacking them and disrupting them seems to have somewhat more success these days. Whether that's a failure of personnel or of approach is something that I'm not sure can be answered, but the 3-4 teams that have had success recently all play a more aggressive and disruptive approach then BB does. The Pats use many of the same hybrid principles that the Seattle defense does, but are no where near as aggressive in their approach. Again, whether that's the problem, or it's more one of lack of adequate players, injury attrition, or poor fundamentals (tackling) is hard to say.
Every defense plays a mix of 'attack' and 'react' schemes, its just the proportion that varies by game plan, and philosophy.
When a defense attacks it gambles to stop one type of play (ie sell out with a blitz to stop a pass and leave the run susceptible, or take away a short pass at the risk of getting beaten deep) sacrifices allowing big plays to make big plays. When a D is reactive it attempts to cover the entire field and playbook and not give up big plays.
Neither approach has ever proven to be more effective than the other, per se, but it really comes down to the talent on the field making the difference.
A well coached talented defense will succeed whether it plays risky or conservative style, and poorly coached or untalented defense will fail in either approach as well.
 
The patriots' version of "sit back and let them get first down after first down/ bend but don't break" should be dead. Hopefully.

Hopefully BB has learned something from an aggressive defense that makes things happen. No sitting back in zone and letting the QB rip 10 to 15 yard passes of at his leisure. So pathetic. Today's QBs are too accurate to concede 10 yard pass plays.

Manning didn't break a sweat in the AFCCG and in the Superbowl Seattle broke him.

How many 5'9-5'10 zone corners did he draft in the 2nd and 3rd rounds? Butler? Wilhite? Wheatley? None of whom like to hit. Meanwhile Seattle takes an all pro in the 6th round! Not just a lucky pick, they can coach people up apparently. Pats seem to coach people down. Teach them not to look for the ball...wouldn't want to give up a long pass. So instead they concede passes unless a safety happens to be there. And get ripped to shreds by accurate QBs.

Maybe you should write a letter to Belechick and invite him over so you can educate him about defense.
 
The 2-gapping 2-4 was working fine when Romeo was running it as the D.C. in Kansas City (2010-2011), even though that defense was definitely still a work in progress. It collapsed in 2012, but that whole team did that.
 
Maybe you should write a letter to Belechick and invite him over so you can educate him about defense.
I didn't say I could educate him. I said his defenses are passive and they suck. Even a blind homer would acknowledge that.

I think he's figured it out by now.
 
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