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Is it time for LeKevin or Green to go?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by mgteich, May 21, 2009.

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  1. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We've been having 24-25 positions on defense: 6 DL, 8 LB, 9 DB and 1-2 Sters. The question is whether we should keep the extra defensive lineman? Considerations:

    A) Seymour might be gone, extended or franchised in 2010.

    B) Wilfork could be gone, extended or franchised in 2010.

    C) Green is likely in his last year as a patriot, and we still don't know about his roster bonus. If that bonus can be avoided, it will be, as it was with Vrabel.

    D) LeKevin is a backup. We already have two of these in Wright and Brace.

    E) The roster spot might help more if used for a special teamer or a player who can fill several roles. Ventrone and Tank Williams come to mind.

    BOTTOM LINE
    As of now, wouldn't it be reasonable to expect to choose between Green and LeKevin?
  2. ALP

    ALP Rookie

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    if i remember correctly, in some packages late last year, when lekevin was in, he was getting amazing pressure on the QB, and was actually the only one to be doing so....

    i would like to see how far we can take that ability....in all honesty, i would have given him green's spot, and it would have been a heck of a lot cheaper
  3. reamer

    reamer Rookie

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    What if we trade Green + one of our offensive lineman (a suddenly crowded position) to Oakland for Burgess? I think that's win-win for both teams, provided the Raiders are willing to extend Green and lower his cap hit. I like Green a lot, especially because of his work in the community, but his production in no way justifies his price. He might be the most expensive backup in the league. LeKevin is a more than adequate replacement, at a vastly reduced price.
    Last edited: May 21, 2009
  4. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    If they like what Green is doing..they could extend..THAT is a real possibility...BUT..maybe they wish to trade or let go...a few options.. I agree there are possibilities of both going..OR maybe one stepping up and taking Sey's position...or in the mix with someone like Richard stepping up in 10. Many possibilities...and I agree..there is some extra players on the O line...that could be added in in a trade.
    Last edited: May 21, 2009
  5. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    We have Wilfork, Wright, Smith and Brace as NTs. We need two of of them for sure, maybe three.

    We have Seymour, Warren and Green as DEs, plus the NTs can fill in sometimes.

    Green is better than Smith at DE, and there needs to be a thrid DE in case Seymour or Warren get hurt. We could save 2 mil by cutting or trading Green. If we coukld improve on him for $2 mil, fine, but I doubt it.

    I like 6 DL at this point in time:
    Seymour
    Warren
    Green
    Wilfork
    Brace
    Wright
    Last edited: May 21, 2009
  6. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You consider Wright primarily a backup NT. I'm not sure that Belichick agrees or he wouldn't have drafted Brace.

    If Belichick does not consider Smith a DE, then he is simply gone. Wilfork, Wright and Brace are more than enough inside.

    There is little point trying to find a replacement for Green in free agency. We can do that next year, if Green isn't extended.

  7. PatsChamp88

    PatsChamp88 Rookie

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    Well then why did we resigned Mike Wright to a four-year, $7.5 million contract if he is not considered a primary backup at DE and NT...or are you saying that he can be starter material? Maybe its just me but I don't think Wilfork will be around after this season
    Last edited: May 21, 2009
  8. ivanfears

    ivanfears Banned

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    you can never have enough big men the extra bodies take care of themselves with injuries stop trying to take a strength and try to make it a weakness give up for a few weeks man
  9. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    That is pretty much what I said in different words except for the first sentence which sounds like you are saying that BB doesn't draft positions for which he has a backup.

    I do considered Wilfork and Wright as NTs, though both sometimes play DE in certain situations. Ditto Smith. Brace may also be groomed to play DE once in a while.

    I think that LeKevin is the odd man out unless there is an injury in tc, or BB carries 7 DLinesmen.
  10. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    Where is Keegs?? :confused:
  11. Jimke

    Jimke Rookie

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    If Pryor or Richard showed some promise, I could see keeping them

    over Green or LeKevin Smith because they would be available for

    4 years.
  12. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I'd have to disagree here, as there's no way Smith backs up as well as Green if someone goes down. Plus, isn't Green still used for many packages, almost making him a little more value still than a regular backup?

    As of usa today's salary database per Miguel:

    Green made 2 million base salary in 08, Wright (backup too) made 1.5 base, so I don't think Green's demands are as ridiculous as you infer.

    I think the point is pretty much what Spacecrime stated--if we can save 2 million by letting Green go (assuming bonus hasn't already been paid) then we'd still have to replace him at approx. half the cost, making the total savings of 1 million or less. Is Green's production, and beneficial replacement worth saving 1 million dollars? I don't personally think so.

    It may look appealing to let Green go on paper, due to the bonus--but wait until someone goes down in a crucial situation, and your mind changes instantly. Green has the experience to take over in a split second, without missing a beat. IMO, he's on a whole other plane than LeKevin Smith right now, in value to the team (no knock on Smith)
  13. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Get rid of Smith? Man, y'all are just trying to make Keegs cry .
  14. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    I am not sure either really replaces Green...as a quick rushing lineman...Pryor would be more a nose tackle...and more so in teh WIlfork/Brace sense than one quick...as Wright?? Richard could be more a DE..so he could be more like LSmith...
  15. Dragda

    Dragda Yes, it's really me... PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #93 Jersey

    Green's play has dropped off for some reason. Maybe he's playing hurt. Maybe he just hit a wall and is now already in decline. LeKevin has some upside and has shown that he can be a role player in this league.
  16. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    Different roles...I don't see one replacing the other...Smith is a bit shorter and heavier...I think it will be up to the fFO to either extend Green..if they think he can be effective as he was in the past...OR cut/trade him if they think his cap number is too high..OR if he will not extend... OR maybe they do not think his number is a problem.... I do think with a number of players up, they may look forward to younger players..
  17. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Regardless of one's opinion on who should be on the block, it'll be interesting to keep an eye on the outcome. I think the obvious key is whether or not the bonus has been paid yet to Green. I think I remember Miguel emailing Green's agent, but to no response so far.
  18. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree with your analysis except for Brace at DE, even occasionally. Brace would be the slowest DE in the league.

  19. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    I like Seymour, Warren, Wilfork, Brace, Wright, and one of Pryor or Richard.
  20. unoriginal

    unoriginal Rookie

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    I don't get all the Pats games but when I've noticed Le Kevin Smith doing good things he as always played as a DE, usually the left end. I haven't seen him inside recently unless its been some weird 2-down-lineman rush package stuff where he is technically a defensive tackle.

    I think the Pats even stopped working him in at nose in preseason last year and just used Rashad Moore. I don't see his future being at NT at all.
  21. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    Agreed with LeKevin: I really liked what I saw from him late last year, and he's being paid in line with what he contributes. Green, on the other hand- I think we could get more production for the money than we do get from him. I wouldn't be at all averse to seeing him traded if it brought us help somewhere else, either in a trade or in freeing up cap space to get one of the many good guys that will get cut before the season starts.

    As far as the question of whether or not to stick with 6 DL, I really like the fact that, by the end of the game, our DL always seems fresher than the opponents' OL. The lack of pass rush after AT went down last year, combined with the state of the secondary, didn't really give them a chance to shine, but assuming that the pass rush improves (whether through AT staying healthy, Crable/Banta-Cain stepping up, Burgess trade, or signing someone) I think it will be even more pronounced this year.

    So no, I'd rather not see the 6th DL be jettisoned in favor of a STer, though it will be interesting to see how the new rules against the wedge affect ST personnel, and by extension rosters as a whole. Eh, whatever happens, I have faith that Belichick will make the right decisions, so I'm not too worried about it.
  22. BradyFTW!

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    #12 Jersey

    Personally, I always viewed Wright as more of a backup NT by necessity, and don't think that he was ever especially well-suited for the role. I like him a lot at DE, thouh. With the drafting of Price, I wouldn't be surprised at all if we see a whole lot more of Wright at DE, which could make Green expendable. At that point, We'd have:

    NT: Wilfork, Brace
    DE: Warren, Seymour, Wright, Smith
    Last edited: May 21, 2009
  23. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    I agree that Wright last year was more a backup NT....and that was his main role...I see him playing SOME nose again...when Wilfork and Brace wear down the line...he plays more a quick role and can be MORE effective at nose when opponents are like that. However with Brace I agree that he will be bale to play more DE..where he will be quite good.
    My only question about trading or cutting Green is who will replace him as a real threat rushing in?? Are LSmith, Wright or others faster? quicker?
    Two years ago Moore was on the team...NOT last year...
    I agree...Brace is really built for NT or DT in a 4-3...perfect with WIlfork for goal line situations. DE in a 3-4?? I agree too slow.
  24. Keegs

    Keegs Rookie

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    some of you better check your tone.

    i see the Pats keeping the following playas:

    LeKevin "The Widowmaker" Smith
    Seymour
    Wilfork
    Warren
    Green
    Brace

    in that order.......
  25. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    No Wright??? I think THAT is wrong....but we shall see..signing a player that was close to signing with another team...means he will stay...so Wright is the 7th??
  26. jczxohn1

    jczxohn1 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    While Wright's optimum role is 3rd down NT, both he and LeKevin should be kept. Too much hanging with contracts coming up for the big 3. LeKevin was Warren's b/u,IIRC. Although Green had a sub-par yr last yr, I would not be surprised to hear he was playing hurt, much like Vrable. He's got a lot more in the tank, IMO.
    7 is a good # this yr., esp. if the LB corps is as thin as some claim.
  27. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Has Belichick ever kept 7 guys on the line during his tenure here? I wonder if that could be a possibility this yr? Of course, I couldn't really tell you where to take another spot from either. Maybe a ST player, due to the new wedge rule?
  28. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Wright just signed a 4 year deal with the Patriots and doesn't cost much at all this season. Barring some pretty wild circumstances, I doubt he's going to be cut.
  29. Patjew

    Patjew PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You need to fix the order. Wilfork should be # 2 after The Widowmaker.
  30. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    Actually it is MORE common that they have had 7...than less...
    In 03...they kept 8..and that was NOT including McGinest who sometimes played on the line.. (Hamilton, Seymour Pleasant, Lyle, Warren, Washington, Green and Klecko)
    In 04 it was 7, NOT including Klecko...(Seymour, Warren, Green, Traylor, Wilfork, Hill and EKelly)...
    In 05 it was 7 WITH Klecko..(Seymour, Green, Warren, Wilfork, Klecko, Hill and Wright (when Wight was IRed SThomas took his place.)
    In 06, it was MOSTLY 7 (Seymour, Green, Warren, Wilfork, Hill, Wright, LSmith) The first 5 games it was 8 as they had JSullivan.
    In 07 it was 12 games 7, 6 games 6 and one game only 5 on the DL (Warren, Green, LSmith, WIlfork played the whole year, but there were players coming and going Seymour started on PUP..Wright played to Game 14 and was IRed, SThomas started on the team for game 1, platyed through 7 when Seymour returned and came back for the Super Bowl after spending the time on the PSqd. Rookie KBrown was on the team through game 11 then cut. RMoore came in for Game 15...replacing Wright. The game that they had 5 was when WRight was injured and IRed..and before they signed Moore. It was a game against the Jets that they had 5.
    Last year they had only 6...the ONLY time in the 3-4 that they have had that few.. (Seymour, Warren, Wilfork, Wright, Green. LSmith)
    I hope that helps....
    Last edited: May 21, 2009
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