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Is it the coaching or the talent?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Spiral, Oct 13, 2009.

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  1. Spiral

    Spiral PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I looked at the five games so far this year. I think BB outcoached Atlanta, the way he took Gonzales out of the game and disrupted the Atlanta offense. I'd call the Baltimore game a push--the game came down to a couple of plays and a couple of calls. Against Buffalo, NY, and Denver, NE looked like they got outcoached. The coaching record to date: 1-3-1.

    To evaluate the talent, I took the H-O-F QB out of the equation. I agree that it may not be fair to evaluate the team that way, but I'm trying to gauge the talent level of the rest of the team, without the effect of a player capable of making the players around him look a lot better than they are. What would a Brady-less team do for the rest of the year? Here's my guess:
    Tenn-loss
    TB-win
    Mia-loss
    Ind-loss
    NYJ-loss
    N.O.-loss
    Mia-loss
    Carolina, Buffalo, Jax, Houston: win two or three out of those four.

    Without Brady, and with the current coaching staff, this appears to be a 5 or 6 win team.

    Is the talent level on this team overrated? If so, hope I haven't overrated BB's ability to do something about it over the course of the next couple of years.
     
  2. Pats726

    Pats726 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Take away a Rivers, a Manning and see how good those teams are...Take away Brees...it's a team game..not sure what your point is by doing that. Any big time QB taken away drops that team down far...
     
  3. patsfan-1982

    patsfan-1982 In the Starting Line-Up

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    i think they will win 10 or 11 game's with brady maybe 8-8 with out him
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2009
  4. patsfaninpittsburgh

    patsfaninpittsburgh Banned

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    "Outcoached" is another of the mega dumb things to constantly surface in recent years.

    Taking Derrick Mason and TO/ Evans out of the equation were master strokes.

    If you were "outcoaching" someone shouldn't you maybe at some point hold a lead for maybe one second in regulation? Was McDaniels saving something for an Elway moment?
     
  5. Spiral

    Spiral PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree--if Brady returns to form, this team can get to 10 or 11 wins and win the AFC East. But that's more of an indicator of how good Brady is, and not an indicator of the overall talent level on this team, which is looking like it's in the average to below-average range. I think the talent at LB, CB, RB and WR is pretty marginal.
     
  6. darkone

    darkone Rookie

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    Well, with a subpar Brady, not playing to his potential, you can see that this is a team that is maybe just above-average in terms of overall quality. It is not playoff-caliber as things currently stand .... (or at least not a team that will go very far in the playoffs).
     
  7. Bill B.

    Bill B. Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    How long have some of you guys been watching the Patriots? In the first half of the year, this team always has it's ups and downs. Right around mid November everything jells for this team. The defense usually finishes the year strong. Just look at the won-loss record for the Patriots in November/December during the Belichick era. They usually get stronger as the season goes. 2007 was the exception. We started off really strong, but tailed off during the end.
     
  8. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    To evaluate the talent, I took the H-O-F QB out of the equation.

    While Cassel is not HOF, yet, we would probably be 5-0 with him in place of Brady.
     
  9. muzz

    muzz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The talent at WR is marginal?
    Really.....you REALLY think the WR talent on the pats is "marginal"

    LBS-Mayo was ROY, and Thomas isn't that removed from being a multi talented player, I'm not the coach, but it seems to me like he's not being used to his full potential.
    CB looks to be decent, maybe not the superstar shutdown corners.
    RB is not the greatest, but I'm thinking if the run the damn ball the team will be top 10 or so overall, if they don't run they won't!
     
  10. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Is that really a fair way to judge BB or this coaching staff, by predicting outcomes without their starting QB? If you're going to do that then you need to compare to how you think every other team in the league would fare without their best player also.

    Now you're predicting the team can win 10-11 games with average to below average talent at multiple positions. If that is the case then I'd say that is a very strong argument that the coaching staff is doing an above-average job.


    One other thing: if the coaching staff is so horrible and win simply because Brady is good, then how did they ever win eleven games last year with a QB that hadn't started a game since high school, Deltha O'Neal at CB, and so many other players injured or on IR? Did the staff all take stupid pills this off-season? Was Josh McDaniels the only thing keeping them from duplicating the Lions '08 performance?
     
  11. Spiral

    Spiral PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I evaluated the coaching staff this year by looking at the five games played to date. They have been outcoached in three of them, IMO.

    Yes, I think this team could win 10-11 games with Brady at QB. In 2007, he was by far the best player in the league. If he gain get back to that level, he can make that much of a difference.

    They won 11 last year because the coaching was better, Cassel had a really good year, Mayo was great, Seymour had a pretty good year, and we had a very easy schedule. Don't forget, they were 1-5 against playoff teams, with the only win coming against Miami.
     
  12. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We were 11-5 without Brady last year, and you have us losing to an 0-5 team and going 5-11 this year without him.
     
  13. edelmansarmy

    edelmansarmy Rookie

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    It's the team not making the few plays needed to win the game.

    The only coaching issue I've had so far this year was in the Jets game. I think we should have run the ball more.

    For Denver, there were 17 points worth of plays that weren't executed by the offense. They usually are and will be by the end of the year.

    I still really like this team. I'll take this journey rather than 17-0. We definitely weren't peaking at the right time during that season. 11-5 may be enough to win the division, and I think 12-4 is still in reach.
     
  14. Spiral

    Spiral PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think Randy Moss is becoming a really good...possession receiver. Let me ask a question: How many times did Brady overthrow him in 2007? How many times did he overthrow him on Sunday? Another thing I've noticed about him this year--he doesn't seem to be able to jump anymore. For a guy with a 40+" vertical, he doesn't seem to be able to go up and get balls like he used to. Is there an injury here? Welker is one of the top slot guys in the league, no question. Aiken would be lucky to get another job if he was cut tomorrow. Edelman has potential, but he's got a ways to go.

    Bodden and Springs are average NFL starters. At that, they're better than they had last year. They both got worked last Sunday.

    RBs: more JAGs. Morris is a veteran JAG, Faulk is a good (but slowing) third-down back, Maroney is on the verge of becoming a bust, and law firm is a feel-good, free-agent type. Move along everyone, nothing to see here.

    Mayo is a good young player with a lot of upside. Thomas is an average NFL starter--not worth nearly what he's being paid. For a 2nd year free agent, Guyton has done a good job. There's definitely some upside there. Ninkovich, Woods, Alexander--these are borderline NFL players.
     
  15. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We beat the only weak team we played.(Bills)
    We beat the team that was widely considered the best in the NFL when we beat them (Ravens)
    We beat a very strong team that is 3-0 vs everyone else. We beat them 26-10, and they have won all of their other games by an average of 31-12
    We lost to a 5-0 team on the road, in OT
    We lost to a division rival who was playing very well at the time.

    We have played 4 of 5 games against teams that appear to be playoff contenders, and are in first place in our division and have only 3 games left with playoff contenders.
    To say that if we continue to play the way we are playing we wouldnt make the playoffs is simply moronic.
     
  16. Spiral

    Spiral PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We're not really in first place if we have the same record as a team that beat us.

    To say that we only have three games left against playoff teams implies that Miami isn't one of them. I saw their games against Indy and NY, and I'd say that both of those games are going to really tough.
     
  17. crypto

    crypto On the Game Day Roster

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    You're out of your mind if you think the Patriots without Brady would be worse than any of those last four team. They would win at least one game at Miami, by the way, and would without question beat the Jets unless the Jets turn things around fast.
     
  18. Spiral

    Spiral PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If you think that we'd win all four of those games, plus one of the Miami games with an undrafted rookie free agent at quarterback, I admire your spirit.
     
  19. edelmansarmy

    edelmansarmy Rookie

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    This team should be 5-2 going into the bye. Stay the course. It's football. The season shifts every week.
     
  20. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Is it the coaching or the talent? I'll go back to what I have been saying all along, it's the execution.

    I don't think it's the coaching. And I think the talent is there, maybe not everywhere, but it's mostly there. But for some reason the execution is a little off. I can't put my finger on what it is and maybe it will just start clicking.
     
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