Is it possible to be a shutdown CB in this NFL?

[MrNathanDrake]

Not under todays rules.

 

[Ring 6]

This is what a shut down corner does:

Cornerback Darrelle Revis has been outstanding. Quarterbacks are 23-of-44 for 354 yards, one touchdown and two interceptions when directly targeting Revis, whose best performance was a five-target shutout against the Bears. It’s amazing what his lockdown mode has done for the Pats in the big games.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/.../2014/11/these_patriots_earn_midseason_awards

 

[JMC00]

one touchdown

And that 1 TD was a pass defense that took a lucky deflection into Wallace's legs and then a lucky bounce into his hands.

 

[manxman2601]

Couple of interesting things to note. Purely in terms of percentage of completions given up/targets, this is Revis' worst year and Sherman's 2nd worst year. As those are the names one thinks of when defining a shut down corner that supports the hypothesis of the thread title. But, if you look at the NFL at large, based on CBs that play at least 75% of snaps (i.e. starters), this year is almost no different in terms of the number of CBs that give up a lower than 50% completion percentage or the number of CBs under 60%:

2014

Under 50% - 2 CBs that played more than 75% of snaps
Under 60% - 21

2013

Under 50% - 2
Under 60% - 23

2012

Under 50% - 3
Under 60% - 23

2011

Under 50% - 6
Under 60% - 30

2010

Under 50% - 4
Under 60% - 17

Whether the new rules will affect Revis or Sherman is yet to be decided, but it doesn't appear to have had much of an effect on the best cornerbacks across the league so far.

 

[Ring 6]

Couple of interesting things to note. Purely in terms of percentage of completions given up/targets, this is Revis' worst year and Sherman's 2nd worst year. As those are the names one thinks of when defining a shut down corner that supports the hypothesis of the thread title. But, if you look at the NFL at large, based on CBs that play at least 75% of snaps (i.e. starters), this year is almost no different in terms of the number of CBs that give up a lower than 50% completion percentage or the number of CBs under 60%:

2014

Under 50% - 2 CBs that played more than 75% of snaps
Under 60% - 21

2013

Under 50% - 2
Under 60% - 23

2012

Under 50% - 3
Under 60% - 23

2011

Under 50% - 6
Under 60% - 30

2010

Under 50% - 4
Under 60% - 17

Whether the new rules will affect Revis or Sherman is yet to be decided, but it doesn't appear to have had much of an effect on the best cornerbacks across the league so far.

Where is that from?
Also it's not % but number of catches.
Corners can play poorly and have a low comp % on a lot of downfield throws for a lot of yards.

 

[manxman2601]

Where is that from?
Also it's not % but number of catches.
Corners can play poorly and have a low comp % on a lot of downfield throws for a lot of yards.

It's from PFF and that's the percentage of catches per target. One can debate the definition of what a shut down corner is, but stopping receivers getting catches is a pretty good measure. In that regard, so far, Revs and Sherman are having slightly down years but the league as a whole are not. I am not saying that the rule changes are definitely having an affect, there may be other reasons why Sherman and Revis are slightly adversely affected.

 

[strngplyr]

This is what a shut down corner does:

Cornerback Darrelle Revis has been outstanding. Quarterbacks are 23-of-44 for 354 yards, one touchdown and two interceptions when directly targeting Revis, whose best performance was a five-target shutout against the Bears. It’s amazing what his lockdown mode has done for the Pats in the big games.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/.../2014/11/these_patriots_earn_midseason_awards

Yeah, but that's 23 catches too many for a *true* shutdown corner! Cut him! Burn him!

Those number, if accurate, are even better than I had thought, and I had already said he's the closest corner to being a shutdown CB in the league still.

 

[Marqui]

It's from PFF and that's the percentage of catches per target. One can debate the definition of what a shut down corner is, but stopping receivers getting catches is a pretty good measure. In that regard, so far, Revs and Sherman are having slightly down years but the league as a whole are not. I am not saying that the rule changes are definitely having an affect, there may be other reasons why Sherman and Revis are slightly adversely affected.

The Seahawks and Patriots play so much cover 3 that those thrown against stats don't really tell much. You just have the watch the games really.

 

[strngplyr]

The Seahawks and Patriots play so much cover 3 that those thrown against stats don't really tell much. You just have the watch the games really.

You really do need to watch the games.

Is it just me, or does it seem like Revis gets tested early in every game, and 90% of his passes given up come in the first Q while nothing has come late, I'd love to see splits.

It's almost like he needs to be woken up, and once the beast has awoken, he's untouchable. He definitely seems to rise to the occasion.

 

[manxman2601]

The Seahawks and Patriots play so much cover 3 that those thrown against stats don't really tell much. You just have the watch the games really.

I agree. This is why I'm very happy to have Revis here. Let me be clear, I'm not criticising Revis at all. I'm just intrigued by the question asked in this thread.

You really do need to watch the games.

Is it just me, or does it seem like Revis gets tested early in every game, and 90% of his passes given up come in the first Q while nothing has come late, I'd love to see splits.

It's almost like he needs to be woken up, and once the beast has awoken, he's untouchable. He definitely seems to rise to the occasion.

I've noticed that too.


Edit: And I do watch every game by the way.

 

[Kontradiction]

Revis, when he's used correctly, is still very much a shutdown corner. The catches he allows are usually when he's playing in off man or zone. This allows the receiver to get a free release and puts Revis in trail almost immediately. When the chips are down and the Pats need a stop on 3rd and long, Revis will be in press man against the other team's #1 receiver and, chances are, will negate the catch. That's well worth his price tag, at least to me.

 

[Marqui]

Anybody who's been watching this team lately will know Revis AND Browner are worth every penny

 

[Ring 6]

It's from PFF and that's the percentage of catches per target. One can debate the definition of what a shut down corner is, but stopping receivers getting catches is a pretty good measure. In that regard, so far, Revs and Sherman are having slightly down years but the league as a whole are not. I am not saying that the rule changes are definitely having an affect, there may be other reasons why Sherman and Revis are slightly adversely affected.

Well the fact that it came from PFF invalidates the data, because frankly they do not know what they are looking at, especially with trying to determine who is responsible in coverage.

My point is that holding a slot receiver to 60% on short passes where 70-75% are normally completed is better than 'holding' a deep threat WR to 50% on throws 15-20+ yards downfield where 50% is really good for any QB.
I'm confused at your comment about 'stopping receivers from getting catches'. That would seem to agree with my point that number of catches is a better gauge more than yours that % is the key.

 

[Ring 6]

Yeah, but that's 23 catches too many for a *true* shutdown corner! Cut him! Burn him!

Those number, if accurate, are even better than I had thought, and I had already said he's the closest corner to being a shutdown CB in the league still.

Sarcasm?
23 catches is total shutdown in 9 games, especially covering the #1 in a league where they will scheme to run picks that get WRs open within 2 yards of the los, or throw WR screens often.

 

[manxman2601]

Well the fact that it came from PFF invalidates the data, because frankly they do not know what they are looking at, especially with trying to determine who is responsible in coverage.

My point is that holding a slot receiver to 60% on short passes where 70-75% are normally completed is better than 'holding' a deep threat WR to 50% on throws 15-20+ yards downfield where 50% is really good for any QB.
I'm confused at your comment about 'stopping receivers from getting catches'. That would seem to agree with my point that number of catches is a better gauge more than yours that % is the key.

surely if you are only comparing the number of catches given up then you need to have some form of levelling. You gave the example that Revis gave up 23 of 44 targets. If you are using number of catches only, isn't someone who gives up 22 catches better, even if it's on 23 targets? My way says that the 23/44 is the lower catch rate and therefore is the better CB.

by the way, the PFF numbers for Revis are almost identical to the ones you provided. I take it that means your numbers are worthless too?

 

[BradyFTW!]

Browner plus Dennard plus 12 million to spend elsewhere versus Browner plus Revis. I'm all for signing Revis to a long-term contract but I don't think it's as cut and dried as you make out. Sure, if Revis completely shuts down the opposing top receiver, then yes but if the current rules mean that Revis is giving up four or five catches every game then I think it's a worthwhile debate.

I would take Revis at $12M per year without a second thought and consider myself lucky to have one of the few CBs who's still capable of shutting down elite WRs.

 

[mayoclinic]

I would take Revis at $12M per year without a second thought and consider myself lucky to have one of the few CBs who's still capable of shutting down elite WRs.

I'm sure the Jets would reconsider and take him back if we don't want him. Or maybe Elway would find the space. I'd love to see the board reaction if either of those occurred.

 

[strngplyr]

Sarcasm?
23 catches is total shutdown in 9 games, especially covering the #1 in a league where they will scheme to run picks that get WRs open within 2 yards of the los, or throw WR screens often.

Yeah it was sarcasm, hence the "cut him, burn him!" remarks. Revis has played even better than I thought he was already playing.

 

[Ring 6]

surely if you are only comparing the number of catches given up then you need to have some form of levelling. You gave the example that Revis gave up 23 of 44 targets. If you are using number of catches only, isn't someone who gives up 22 catches better, even if it's on 23 targets? My way says that the 23/44 is the lower catch rate and therefore is the better CB.

by the way, the PFF numbers for Revis are almost identical to the ones you provided. I take it that means your numbers are worthless too?

If my numbers (from Howe) are PFF numbers then yes. PFF is awful.

You are judging throwing an incomplete pass at my man to be better than realizing he is covered and not throwing to him. I don't see that as better.
To use an example your method says if you throw at one corner 15 times and complete 8 for 200 yards that is better than throwing at the other corner 3 times and completing 2 for 12 yards.

 

[manxman2601]

If my numbers (from Howe) are PFF numbers then yes. PFF is awful.

You are judging throwing an incomplete pass at my man to be better than realizing he is covered and not throwing to him. I don't see that as better.
To use an example your method says if you throw at one corner 15 times and complete 8 for 200 yards that is better than throwing at the other corner 3 times and completing 2 for 12 yards.

Like I said, there's no perfect system. And it's completely irrelevant because I'm comparing like for like years.