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Is Europe a Sinking Ship?

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatriotsReign, Jun 22, 2011.

  1. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    My gut feeling tells me, "Yes, Europe is sinking". A very interesting (and long) article summarized by the 2 paragraphs below.

    I believe Europe's current condition is real-time proof that their bloated systems of social safety-nets is unsustainable. The problems in Europe aren't due to lack of revenue, they are due to expenses far above that which their working population could ever sustain.

    "The euro, created with the aim of permanently uniting Europe, has become the greatest threat to the continent's future. A collapse of the monetary union would set Europe back by decades, dealing it a blow from which it might never recover, especially with Europe's position already threatened by the fast-growing Asian economies. How is a fragmented Europe to prevail against this new competition?

    This is why Europe's politicians want to defend the euro at all costs, and why they are approving one bailout package after the next. They are playing for time, hoping that the markets will settle down and the reforms will take hold."


    How the Euro Became Europe's Greatest Threat

    Time for Plan B: How the Euro Became Europe's Greatest Threat - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

    Someone needs to let Europe know you can't have a society that gets 6+ weeks of gov't mandated vacation, 2-3 hour lunch-breaks and a fully-funded retirement at the young age of 60 and still have an economy that can compete on an international scale.

    Note: I am not and would not be against minimum vacations mandated by law for certain industries & job types. There is another extreme that is just as dangerous as Europe's and that would be allowing corporations to dictate and influence labor law to the point we all work 60 hrs/wk with no vacations and no benefits.

    I am also heavily against the taxing of employee benefits (i.e. company paid health insurance).
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2011
  2. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact On the Roster

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    europe's problems are just beginning

    as a continent, the birth rate is at 1.4 per woman (it takes 2.1 to sustain a population), so the continent is getting old. only britain, france, and ireland come close, but even they don't sustain.

    some other points:

    italy would either need to raise its retirement age to 77 or admit 2.2million immigrants per year to maintain its worker to retiree ratio

    the working age population in the EU will decrease by 48 million, a 16% reduction, between 2010 and 2050, while the elderly population will increase by 58 million, a gain of 77%.

    they need to start cranking babies out......now
  3. PatriotsReign

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    Birth rates are a great point regarding economic outlooks and system sustainability IC. Japan is the perfect example of that...and very soon, so will China.

    To me, it's almost as if everything happens 10X faster than it did (economically speaking) 30-40 years ago...and I'm sure there's some truth to that sense. I'll admit, I often wish change would slow down.

    I realize I'm getting off-point, but it seems to me almost everyone on this planet is in a hurry to go no where. Collectively, all nations seem hell bent upon something, yet no country has a real vision of where they're going or even want to go.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2011
  4. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Out President would like us to be more like Europe......WHY?????????
  5. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact On the Roster

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    only in regards to the things that EU does 'better' than the US.

    the problem is that the government has proven inefficient in every single one of its endeavors to provide a consistent benefit to their entire population. all pyramid schemes that are thoughtlessly designed to fail from the outset
  6. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    I highly doubt many Americans would like to be more like Europe right now...that fantasy is dying on the vine.

    Personally, I'd like to be more like the United States of America...:D
  7. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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  8. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    Yes, I've been reading that as well PF13. I posted a thread months back saying that european countries that were bailed out SHOULD default. These countries screwed their citizens over by endowing them with several generations of tax burdens without their consent.

    I have no idea what the market consequences would be if all nations could just default on their debt, but it's an interesting idea. If every nation could wipe their national debt clean and start from scratch, I wonder what effect it would have upon their "Tax & Spend" structure?

    Would some countries continue to spend more they collect in tax revenues?
    That would be very sad.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2011
  9. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact On the Roster

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    its like a condo development and certain owners are refusing to pay the condo fee.......
  10. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    But only if the condo fee were doubled without the consent of the condo owners.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2011
  11. Gainzo

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    #11 Jersey

    It's all about the Euro. A shared currency looked great 12 years ago when just about every industrialized nation was booming, but it was an unmitigated disaster in hindsight.

    Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain, etc never had sustained economic success like Germany and the UK.

    It's not about government health care, unemployment benefits or 4-6 weeks of vacation. It's all about crap economy's dragging down the good economy's.
  12. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    Defaulting on their debt is "all about government health care, unemployment benefits or 6+ weeks of vacation, etc."...it's about that and nothing else.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2011
  13. Gainzo

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    #11 Jersey

    You are blaming Europe while I am blaming their implementation of the Euro. Australia, New Zealand & Canada are social democratic societies and they are doing OK.
  14. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    Only because those nations are more fiscally responsible. compare social programs/benefits between Greece, Australia, New Zealand & Canada and you'll be amazed at what Greece thought they could do.

    It's all about revenues vs. expenditures.
  15. Gainzo

    Gainzo Rookie

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    #11 Jersey

    I agree with you. My entire point is that the decision to adopt the Euro was, and will continue to be, a disaster.

    Greece has always been a basket case. Most of the sites they built for the 2004 Olympics are ghost towns. No offense to my Greek friends but Greece is a disaster.
  16. PatriotsReign

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    Then we agree...and Greece/Europe's troubles not something I take pleasure in no matter what system they have. If it was sustainable, hell, I might have even moved there.
  17. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey


    If I wasn't married :eek: ... I do love dark haired Italian women for sure ... :p:p:p

    dark haired any kind of women really ... but Italy is where my DNA comes from. ;)
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2011
  18. Gainzo

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    #11 Jersey

    I take no pleasure in the downfall of any of those Country's. Greece is odd as growing up in Melbourne, Australia a lot of my friends were Greek and their parents were hard workers.

    When I lived in Melbourne, it had more Greeks than any City not named Athens!
  19. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    European systems were doomed regardless. All the Euro did was drastically speed up their inevitible demise. The lesser nations of Europe could no longer print and manipulate their currency when need be, once they switched to the Euro. I said it when they switched, and every year since, the Euro is doomed to failure. Greece will never pay back the bailout money, and all bailing them out will do, is take Germany down with them. Unsustainable fiscal policies will not work long term. It's not all that complicated to figure out. It's simple math and some basic common sense. Even if our nation, Europe, and the globe survive this "great recession", it'll be a short lived survival if drastic, long term, scructural changes aren't made. Greece is better off leaving the EU and going back to printing its own money. Eventually that's where it will end up.
  20. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    We're all doomed unless we can control the population AND reduce consumption. The idea that Europe needs to start having more babies to pay for the elderly there will only help if they can figure out how to drastically reduce their consumption. I don't see a population boom happening or being useful. Same goes for everyone else. The crazy idea that there is no limit to growth, economic, consumption or population (all go together) needs to be removed from our thought process. The population is getting older because Euro-Americans are having less kids while people are living longer. Given that we exist in a so-called "free market" system, this will not be easy. Expect intense class upheavals and possible revolutions in places you'd never expect to see it.

    The Euro will never be eliminated. If anything, it is the model for a single global currency that will end the use of paper and coins and advance the corporate policy of border elimination. Computerized debit systems will be globally centralized. We just have to figure out how to bring Africa, China and the Middle East on board with modernization and move away from tribal, religious and ethnic rivalry. Should be a piece of cake.

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