Is Cassel now worth a 1st round pick?

[MoLewisrocks]

It's not, but you still manage not to get it.

"Hey, I found out that of the last 20,000 free agents, one was franchised and traded for a first round pick. It must be easy to do."

You just gotta stop and think there must be a reason teams don't franchise and trade guys all the time. And it is because it is very hard to do, not easy.

And if the franchisee won't sign a deal with the trade team, the deal just isn't going to happen.

Franchise tags work when you want to play the player. Players hate the franchise tag, and you cannot franchise and trade unless the player agrees to a deal with the trading team. People here keep saying to trade Cassel to the highest bidder. Isn't anyone listening? Cassel is a FA. YOu think any team in their right mind is going to give a first rond pick and $15 mil to a player for ONE YEAR. Unless Cassel agrees with the trade it just ain't happening.

The first player ever franchise tagged...was traded.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

It doesn't happen that way Joe, nor is it remotely nefarious. Once tagged Cassel and his agent are free to talk to any of the other 31 teams. If one wants him at less than the tag price they approach NE about a trade. Of course then NE begins to assess overall interest and pehaps discuss better offers which they could accept or just use as leverage against the team who first wanted Matt and with whom he was talking contract...He won't sign the tag because he wants to be a starter. And he knows worst case scenario they can't get a deal done and rescind the tag which makes him a FA...which is what he would have been anyway. And in this cap flush environment hitting the market in April isn't the detriment it used to be.

good point. if he signs the tag then his leverage is gone because he needs to play the next season under the tag. he wants the HUGE contract with guaranteed money for a number of years as a starter.

if he signs then he is mortgaging his peaking stock and the stock will sink a bit.

it's the reason asante wanted the franchise tag removed.

 

[BelichickFan]

I'd actually be happy with a #1 in 2010 from a so-so team. We already have a #1, two #2 and (almost certainly) two #3 this year. A team is far more likely to trade a future #1 and I'd be fine with the picks we have for 2009 and head into 2010 with two #1s.

 

[Deus Irae]

It's not, but you still manage not to get it.

"Hey, I found out that of the last 20,000 free agents, one was franchised and traded for a first round pick. It must be easy to do."

You just gotta stop and think there must be a reason teams don't franchise and trade guys all the time. And it is because it is very hard to do, not easy.

And if the franchisee won't sign a deal with the trade team, the deal just isn't going to happen.

Franchise tags work when you want to play the player. Players hate the franchise tag, and you cannot franchise and trade unless the player agrees to a deal with the trading team. People here keep saying to trade Cassel to the highest bidder. Isn't anyone listening? Cassel is a FA. YOu think any team in their right mind is going to give a first rond pick and $15 mil to a player for ONE YEAR. Unless Cassel agrees with the trade it just ain't happening.

Jared Allen
Corey Williams
Sean Gilbert
Peerless Price
Tebucky Jones

I get it just fine.

 

[Joker]

good point....

 

[JoeSixPat]

Kansas City Chiefs Franchise Tag Jared Allen - Carl Peterson, NFL

Chiefs trade Jared Allen to Minnesota: | SportsFilter

This really isn't rocket science.

Ditto John Abraham in 2006 - Mangini started to rebuild his defense with the #1 he got from Atlanta for a player who didn't want to play in NY ever again and whom he couldn't afford to keep if he did...

This discussion (I started weeks ago...) is proof reading truly is a lost art.

The why these players don't sign the tag question has already been answered too. The tag is paid in 17 installments of salary beginning in September 2009.

And all of those players were guranteed $14 million? Or I'm guessing perhaps they would have eaten up a bit less of the cap than that had the deal not gone down, as is always a possibility.

And I'm not sure Matt Cassel is going to think getting guaranteed money in 17 installments is the toughest thing in the world.

I'm not sure I even play in the pre-season if I'm Cassel. I know I've got the $14 million. I'm not sure my stock goes up if I twist my knee in the preseason.

My only point here is that while "rocket science" it is not - it's also not something as simple as saying "he's worth a first round pick to a team so we're going to franchise him and trade him and evertying is going to go as planned with absolutely no risk to us and there's no way we're gonna wind up being stuck with him for a year at $14 million...."

 

[JoeSixPat]

It doesn't happen that way Joe, nor is it remotely nefarious. Once tagged Cassel and his agent are free to talk to any of the other 31 teams. If one wants him at less than the tag price they approach NE about a trade. Of course then NE begins to assess overall interest and pehaps discuss better offers which they could accept or just use as leverage against the team who first wanted Matt and with whom he was talking contract...He won't sign the tag because he wants to be a starter. And he knows worst case scenario they can't get a deal done and rescind the tag which makes him a FA...which is what he would have been anyway. And in this cap flush environment hitting the market in April isn't the detriment it used to be.

I'm not so sure anyone can say there's no way he signs the tender when offered.

That's $14 million guranteed. Period. And presumably, as you point out - there's nothing about the tag that makes it more difficult for him to be traded - as you pointed out it happens all the time.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Jared Allen
Corey Williams
Sean Gilbert
Peerless Price
Tebucky Jones

I get it just fine.

Tebucky Jones got a $14 million franchise tag????

I hate to be the one to point this out but there is a slight difference there.

 

[BelichickFan]

Tebucky Jones got a $14 million franchise tag????

I hate to be the one to point this out but there is a slight difference there.

Other teams are also going to give more to a "solution" at QB. Relative to position value I'm not sure the $$$ value is much different. Of course you'd give much more for a QB than a Safety.

 

[Deus Irae]

Tebucky Jones got a $14 million franchise tag????

I hate to be the one to point this out but there is a slight difference there.

Given that the question was about franchising and trading, there's no difference at all.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Given that the question was about franchising and trading, there's no difference at all.

OK - just so we're clear... you're saying that there is absolutely no risk whatsoever of the Patriots seeing Cassel sign the tender when they tag him, and no chance that even if that happened, there's no way they'd find themselves stuck with him.

Because if that happened, signing Cassel to a $1 million one year deal would be different from signing him to a $14 million one year deal.

 

[Rob0729]

It's not, but you still manage not to get it.

"Hey, I found out that of the last 20,000 free agents, one was franchised and traded for a first round pick. It must be easy to do."

You just gotta stop and think there must be a reason teams don't franchise and trade guys all the time. And it is because it is very hard to do, not easy.

And if the franchisee won't sign a deal with the trade team, the deal just isn't going to happen.

Franchise tags work when you want to play the player. Players hate the franchise tag, and you cannot franchise and trade unless the player agrees to a deal with the trading team. People here keep saying to trade Cassel to the highest bidder. Isn't anyone listening? Cassel is a FA. YOu think any team in their right mind is going to give a first rond pick and $15 mil to a player for ONE YEAR. Unless Cassel agrees with the trade it just ain't happening.

Imagine if the Chiefs put the franchise tag on Jared Allen last offseason. Do you think there was a snowball chance in hell that they could get a team like the Vikings to trade them a first and two thirds for him? That is ridiculous..... Wait! It happened? Go figure. The Vikings even made Allen one of the highest paid defensive players in the league to boot. Go figure.

Trading franchise players isn't a yearly occurance, but it isn't exactly rare. The Chiefs traded a franchised Allen last year. The Jets traded a franchised John Abraham a few years back. The Bills traded a franchised Peerless Price about four years ago.

 

[PromisedLand]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned in this thread (not going to read all 110 previous posts), but the other reason players don't often sign the tag is the risk that they get injured while playing under the tag. Sure, $14M is a lot, but if Cassel gets injured during the year he risks missing out on a REALLY big payday - $30, 40, 50M or more. If he continues to play as well for the next few weeks as he did over the past 3 he will command that kind of contract for sure.

So for me, this whole idea of tagging Matt really comes down to how well he plays for the rest of the year, because if he is seen as only a mediocre starting QB he won't be worth enough to other teams to make it unlikely he would sign the tag, and if he is seen as a potential star QB, he will. And if he is, the Patriots can tag him and he won't sign it and they tag him with confidence they can trade him.

 

[Deus Irae]

OK - just so we're clear... you're saying that there is absolutely no risk whatsoever of the Patriots seeing Cassel sign the tender when they tag him, and no chance that even if that happened, there's no way they'd find themselves stuck with him.

Because if that happened, signing Cassel to a $1 million one year deal would be different from signing him to a $14 million one year deal.

1.) Cassel isn't going to want to sign a 1 year deal for 14 if he can sign a multiple year deal for 60. It's why players get pissed about getting franchised rather than excited by the prospect.

2.) The Patriots have $24 million under the cap and no 'money' players that need to be re-signed.

3.) Players like Bruschi might retire, be cut, or be asked to take pay cuts or adjust their contracts.

The money will be there. The issue that might arise is signing a big name free agent at another position. All other issues are covered by the cap space that would still be there, at least until it becomes time to sign the draftees. By that time, other moves and restructurings can be made if necessary.

 

[patsfan55]

you can't let this guy walk for nothing

bingo, he's got bingo

I'm thinking Detroit's 2010 1st rounder, or Minnesota's 2009 1st rounder.
Minnesota could be a very good team with Cassel at the helm.

 

[Rob0729]

bingo, he's got bingo

I'm thinking Detroit's 2010 1st rounder, or Minnesota's 2009 1st rounder.
Minnesota could be a very good team with Cassel at the helm.

I think Cassel to San Fran would make the most sense. They need a QB. Cassel grew up a 49ers fan. They are desperate to reclaim past glory and have been paying free agents to get there. They might be a QB away from being a playoff team in a weak division. The Pats and 49ers have a history of trading.

 

[VJCPatriot]

When teams - even the Patriots - misuse the Franchise Cap, I don't think its good for the team, or to football in general, or fair to the player.

I think with Brady's health being questionable, using the tag on Cassel is justifiable - and if someone makes them an offer that has the Patriots decide its worth the risk to go into the season without him so be it

I'm sure the Patriots front office will be doing their best to keep word of Brady's health as secret as possible.

None of that changes the fact that Schaub and Cassel's situations have some pretty significant differences in the leverage that the Patriots hold, the leverage that Cassel holds, and the leverage that an unnamed team holds in calling our bluff on whether we're prepared to pay $14 million for a season, complicated by the fact that we'd be looking for them to take on an expensive salary and give up a 1st round pick minimum.

As I said - it's more complicated than answering "yes" to the question of whether he's worth a first round pick.

You're acting like there will only be ONE team interested in Cassel though. In a QB starved NFL, the Pats will get several offers and then they can choose the best available offer. What bluff would unnamed team A be calling, when teams B and C are also burning up the phone lines?

A 1st round pick would be a very nice value for Cassel, but even if we only get a 2nd round pick plus change, that will still put the Pats in BETTER position than letting him walk away for nothing.

The OTHER advantage you fail to appreciate is that by tagging and trading, the Pats can control to some extent who Cassel goes to. So you can avoid having him goto a division rival for example.

PS I believe that Cassel has played himself into the 1st round pick value. All he needs to do is finish off the season in a decent manner and we are talking more draft picks for 2009! What a boon that would be fore the reloading process!

 

[JoeSixPat]

You're acting like there will only be ONE team interested in Cassel though. In a QB starved NFL, the Pats will get several offers and then they can choose the best available offer. What bluff would unnamed team A be calling, when teams B and C are also burning up the phone lines?

A 1st round pick would be a very nice value for Cassel, but even if we only get a 2nd round pick plus change, that will still put the Pats in BETTER position than letting him walk away for nothing.

The OTHER advantage you fail to appreciate is that by tagging and trading, the Pats can control to some extent who Cassel goes to. So you can avoid having him goto a division rival for example.

PS I believe that Cassel has played himself into the 1st round pick value. All he needs to do is finish off the season in a decent manner and we are talking more draft picks for 2009! What a boon that would be fore the reloading process!

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. This situation is just a bit more complicated than saying that because he's worth a 1st round draft choice, a franchise tag and trade is a fait accomplis.

 

[Lifer]

cassel is worth more then a 1st rounder...

a 1st and 3rd at the least...

i can name at least 10 teams salivating over this guy...teams that are complete but lack a true QB which would boost them to sb contention

God Lord, for weeks all we heard were people saying the guy couldnt play, now hes a Pro Bowl QB.

someone take a rock and kill me.

 

[BelichickFan]

God Lord, for weeks all we heard were people saying the guy couldnt play, now hes a Pro Bowl QB.

We have more data now. Intelligent people change their minds when the facts change.