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Is a mature discsussion about race and racism possible?

Discussion in 'The PatsFans.com Pub' started by JoeSixPat, Mar 17, 2007.

  1. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    RIP #40 opened a hornets nest when asking a question about the racial makeup of our OL. Fencer clinched the closing of it with his post, which I think was misunderstood and knee jerked classified as a "racist" posting

    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=52806

    All the associated threads were closed and/or deleted.

    I agree with the Mods - the main board wasn't the place to have that discussion, especially given the direction it was going in.

    But perhaps this is the place.

    What intrigues me most is Fencer's attempt to offer a somewhat statistical view of the racial makeup of certain positions.

    What seems to be misunderstood is that he effectively said that Blacks and Whites, being of equal intelligence, will statistically show prevelance in keeping with their numbers in society as a whole - i.e. blacks will represent a statistical minority.

    However, he effectively gave an athletic compliment to African Americans in general stating that they are better, quicker, athletes.

    Is this in and of itself racist? Complimenting a race for a positive genetic "quality"? Or is it a backhanded "compliment" because it evokes images of athleticsim as a result of a race enslaved and the "strong surviving".

    Is this a topic that can even be discussed maturely, and without resulting in "racist" name calling? Maybe yes, maybe no - I guess if anyone responds we'll see.

    Personally I have to rule out 2-3 generations of slavery having anything to do with a real or percieved view of blacks being more athletic. I think scientifically such a short time period doesn't compare to hundreds of generations going back to Africa... and indeed, one has to admit the possibility that a tougher environment resulted in genetically preferred characteristics.

    But am I racist to contemplate the science of heredity? I don't think so - but again, all these questions and attempts to answer always seem to somehow be misconstrued as "racism" and I just can't accept the fact that such things can't be talked about and explored by smart, sane, non-racist people.

    I'd just like to see if anyone else has anything to say on the topic of acutal differences between races. I believe they do exist - I know they do (no one would deny that skin color is a clear genetic difference, and if skin color is a difference, why not other differences as well?) - its just that we can't talk about them I guess - and that bothers me... and even by complimenting one race, aren't we insulting another?

    Really, I don't know what I'm trying to accomplish by writing this - just venting that we're not evolved as a human race apparently to be able to engage in a discussion on this period.

    I guess its just not politically correct to discuss any racial differences - which as a rational, non-racist person, I just find silly. But I guess chances are good someone who actually is racist will wind up taking a mature topic and bringing it down - we will see.
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2007
  2. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    The only thing I have to say on the subject is that it's stupid to suggest we HAVE TO be of equal anything, whether it's intelligence, temperament, athletic ability, whatever.

    Just like men and women aren't the same. Look at them. THEY'RE DIFFERENT. It's OK. Given that most attributes of men and women's bodies are different, why should their brains be equal ?

    Same with black and white or any other group. Look at blacks and whites . . . THEY'RE DIFFERENT. Same with Whites and Chinese or Blacks and Hispanics. THEY'RE DIFFERENT. And different does not have to be equal, whether that's intelligence, temperament, athletic ability or anything else.

    That's about all I have to say except that blacks are better athletes than whites. Duh. Intelligence and temperament ? I have my own opinions but they're basically useless as they aren't remotely close enough to scientific to be anything more than opinions. But I can say unequivocably that not all races have to have the same average intelligence.
  3. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    I think we have an answer to the thread question...
  4. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    There was nothing imature about my response, maybe you're so thin skinned and politically correct that you assume we all have to be the same. If the rest of our bodies are different, why assume our brains are the same ? Please note I have made no comment on the brain of any race being "better" or even that they have to be different - just that they don't HAVE to be the same.
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2007
  5. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    I don't think you are saying this but some could read into your response that you are generalizing for an entire race.

    Is it accurate to generalize about a race? Certainly within any race we are definately all different - I know tons of stupid white people.... but that doesn't mean white people in general are stupid.

    Yet usually there is some grain of truth in stereotypes as well... while its not politically correct to acknowledge this, most of my experiences say that's true - so should we just ignore it because its politcally incorrect?

    I guess that's what it boils down to - are there general statements one could make about various races? And if so are they inherently racist?

    If they made a movie called "White Men Can't Jump" wouldn't you think that would spark some outcry about such a gross generalization? Maybe not. Maybe all the white guys know its pretty much true.

    Of course if you made a movie with a similar title with another race, I wonder what would happen?

    I guess anything that someone designates as something that can't be talked about is something I want to talk about. Talking about them openly and honestly, without deluding ourselves because of political correctness is what I view as a "mature" discussion.

    Unfortuately there is outright racism still in this country - nothing like in decades before, but it's still there. Over time those truly racist people will continue to "die off" but I am concerned that being overly politically correct is going to "breed" a new generation of racism, by those who become overly jaded about doublestandards.
  6. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I think the answer to your question is clear, saying White Men Can't Jump, while "racist" is obviously true in general. Compared to Blacks, White can't jump. It's true . . . and it's OK. I'm guessing Asians can't either although I've never seen them try.

    Unfortunately race is such a hot button topic that you can't say it even if it's true. It's stupid but it's reality.
  7. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The whole topic evokes so much emotion, no matter what the parameters of the discussion, anything that deviates is considered to be racist. I have spent a lot of time with black, spanish and SE Asian folks, and at work and outside just goofing around. Sometimes I just listen to their experience, which is helpful. After having spend so much time I have a high respect for all of them and their experiences. When I am with an all white crowd, and race comes it evokes such emotion I usually keep quiet there as well. The problem imo is lack of familiarity and anecdotal evidence which hinders a basic understanding of the issues that create more commonalities than differences.

    FYI spent 30 years in corrections and found it to be incredibly rewarding, and even though worked and spent time with a lot of people I did not like, learned to respect them as people and members of very unique cultures. We as a society are continually focused on anecdotal incidents which cloud our perspective. This experience tempers my feelings about minorities in general and makes me aware of their strengths, something often not highlighted in main stream america.
  8. Turd Furguson

    Turd Furguson Rookie

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    The only thing thats crystal clear to me is that political correctness run amuck will serve as the catalyst for the downfall of our society.

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