Interesting Scenario for Week 17: Would BB do it?

[Haley]

Re: Would BB take a dive?

Taking a dive to me means intentionally losing a game.

If playing Matt Cassel means intentionally losing a game, the Chiefs have been taking a dive all season long.

 

[Amnorix]

Re: Would BB take a dive?

Taking a dive to me means intentionally losing a game.

If playing Matt Cassel means intentionally losing a game, the Chiefs have been taking a dive all season long.

Did you SEE the play at the end to lose the game to the Dolphins? I mean, it's a two point conversion to tie. Throwing it away or doing ANYTHING other than putting out 1,000% effort to tie is complletely unacceptable., under any normal circumstance

And Cassell, swear to God, throws it into the second row. He kinda sorta tried to make it look good, but it was a completely uncatchable ball. You can't tell me that he wasn't specifically told by BB to throw it away so we'd get the plyaoff matchup we wanted (versus Jags instead of the eventually SB-winning Steelers).

So yes, in my book, BB ***intentionally*** lost an NFL game.

And why the hell wouldn't he? He'd be a moron to fight to win a game to get a WORSE playoff matchup.

 

[TheGodInAGreyHoodie]

Re: Would BB take a dive?

Taking a dive to me means intentionally losing a game.

If playing Matt Cassel means intentionally losing a game, the Chiefs have been taking a dive all season long.

If you play Sorgi instead of a healthy Peyton Manning you are taking a dive.
If you play Cassel instead of a healthy Tom Brady you are taking a dive.
If you play Painter instead of a healthy Tom Brady you are taking a dive.
If you play Edelman instead of a healthy Wes Welker you are taking a dive.

If Matt Cassel is the best QB on the roster playing him is not taking a dive.

 

[CopenhagenPatsfan]

Re: Would BB take a dive?

Taking a dive to me means intentionally losing a game.

If playing Matt Cassel means intentionally losing a game, the Chiefs have been taking a dive all season long.

Again, I was at that game, Cassel clearly threw the ball over a wide open Bam Childress's head, on purpose.

 

[Haley]

Re: Would BB take a dive?

If you play Sorgi instead of a healthy Peyton Manning you are taking a dive.
If you play Cassel instead of a healthy Tom Brady you are taking a dive.
If you play Painter instead of a healthy Tom Brady you are taking a dive.
If you play Edelman instead of a healthy Wes Welker you are taking a dive.

If Matt Cassel is the best QB on the roster playing him is not taking a dive.

I respectfully disagree. Taking a dive means making sure you lose. Bringing in a second string QB is not the equivalent.

If Cassel did throw the ball away intentionally, that would be different. I wasn't there and these other folks were. I can't speak to this so I'll take other poster's word on this. But my point is that simply playing Cassel instead of Brady isn't tossing the game. However, this alleged self-sabotage at the buzzer would be. Anyone have pics/video?

 

[serifyn]

Re: Would BB take a dive?

intentionally lose? probably not, but it would be week 17, so if he wanted to rest every starter he could, put in every back up and rush fred taylor on all 4 downs i wouldent object.



the last thing you need is an injury like wes welkers last year in a meaningless game.

 

[Amnorix]

Re: Would BB take a dive?

I respectfully disagree. Taking a dive means making sure you lose. Bringing in a second string QB is not the equivalent.

If Cassel did throw the ball away intentionally, that would be different. I wasn't there and these other folks were. I can't speak to this so I'll take other poster's word on this. But my point is that simply playing Cassel instead of Brady isn't tossing the game. However, this alleged self-sabotage at the buzzer would be. Anyone have pics/video?

I looked for it and can't find it.

As I remember it -- the seeding was clear even before the game -- lose and definitely play the Jaguars. Win and *maybe* play the Steelers. Instead of starting Brady, we start Cassell. We were down by a fair bit early, and then came roaring from behind to score a TD in the final minutes/seconds, but we needed 2 to tie.

Cassell, again IIRC, rolls out to his right. The receiver is relatively open (not wide open) near the sideline. Cassell throws it substantially (not absurdly, but substantially) over his head.

There is ALOT of discussion after the game about whether it's intentional. BB denies it / avoids it. Cassell does the same.

Soon as I saw the throw I knew what he'd done, and why, and heartily approved. It was the same reason he started Cassell to begin with. In addition to not really wanting to win to begin with to risk a worse matchup, converting the 2 points at that point meant overtime. Who the hell wants to play overtime in a meaningless game the week before the plyaoffs start (Pats did NOT have the bye that year)?

Throwing away that pass, and the game, was clearly and obviously the correct thing to do.

 

[Haley]

Re: Would BB take a dive?

I looked for it and can't find it.

As I remember it -- the seeding was clear even before the game -- lose and definitely play the Jaguars. Win and *maybe* play the Steelers. Instead of starting Brady, we start Cassell. We were down by a fair bit early, and then came roaring from behind to score a TD in the final minutes/seconds, but we needed 2 to tie.

Cassell, again IIRC, rolls out to his right. The receiver is relatively open (not wide open) near the sideline. Cassell throws it substantially (not absurdly, but substantially) over his head.

There is ALOT of discussion after the game about whether it's intentional. BB denies it / avoids it. Cassell does the same.

Soon as I saw the throw I knew what he'd done, and why, and heartily approved. It was the same reason he started Cassell to begin with. In addition to not really wanting to win to begin with to risk a worse matchup, converting the 2 points at that point meant overtime. Who the hell wants to play overtime in a meaningless game the week before the plyaoffs start (Pats did NOT have the bye that year)?

Throwing away that pass, and the game, was clearly and obviously the correct thing to do.

Are you sure you are thinking of the right game? In this game, Brady started. After ending the first quarter with a TD to Branch, Brady was pulled for Cassel with a tied score (7-7).

ref, see:
Miami Dolphins at New England Patriots - January 1st, 2006 - Pro-Football-Reference.com

NFL Game Center: Miami Dolphins at New England Patriots - 2005 Week 17

Edit: Actually, after viewing the video located here (at the tail end of this 2 minute video):
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/20060...play/recap-channels:cat-post-recap-quick-take
this doesn't look like an intentional throw away to me and certainly wasn't thrown into the 2nd row. It was thrown close to the sideline of the endzone. Are we talking about the same game??

 

[VJCPatriot]

Re: Would BB take a dive?

Imagine that the Jets lose out, and the Dolphins win 3 straight while the Pats clinch the #1 seed one week 16. The Pats would then host the Dolphins in week 17, where if the Dolphins win, the Jets miss the playoffs. Would BB lay down for the Dolphins so the Jets miss the playoffs?

Just No. He might rest his starters in the final game if the Pats had the #1 seed clinched but no BB team will ever 'take a dive' as you suggest.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Re: Would BB take a dive?

Imagine that the Jets lose out, and the Dolphins win 3 straight while the Pats clinch the #1 seed one week 16. The Pats would then host the Dolphins in week 17, where if the Dolphins win, the Jets miss the playoffs. Would BB lay down for the Dolphins so the Jets miss the playoffs?

Belichick would never dishonor the game.

But Hoyer does need some work.

 

[Synovia]

Re: Would BB take a dive?

I respectfully disagree. Taking a dive means making sure you lose. Bringing in a second string QB is not the equivalent.
?

Removing your Starting QB, Starting WRs, Starting RB, and a some of your starting offensive lineman for an entire game is taking a dive. They sat pretty much everyone who was the slightest bit sore.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Re: Would BB take a dive?

Did you SEE the play at the end to lose the game to the Dolphins? I mean, it's a two point conversion to tie. Throwing it away or doing ANYTHING other than putting out 1,000% effort to tie is complletely unacceptable., under any normal circumstance

And Cassell, swear to God, throws it into the second row. He kinda sorta tried to make it look good, but it was a completely uncatchable ball. You can't tell me that he wasn't specifically told by BB to throw it away so we'd get the plyaoff matchup we wanted (versus Jags instead of the eventually SB-winning Steelers).

So yes, in my book, BB ***intentionally*** lost an NFL game.

And why the hell wouldn't he? He'd be a moron to fight to win a game to get a WORSE playoff matchup.

Let's not forget, BTW, the context:

PIT was locked in as #6, JAX as #5. Cincinnati and NE were still vying for #3 and #4, with Cincinnati holding the edge—they win, and they get the #3 seed.

So, basically, BB saw that Cincinnati was rolling over, basically telling NE "Here, you play PIT," and BB said "F*** that."

In that game, BTW, Kimo von Oelhoffen wrecked Carson Palmer's knee.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Re: Would BB take a dive?

Removing your Starting QB, Starting WRs, Starting RB, and a some of your starting offensive lineman for an entire game is taking a dive. They sat pretty much everyone who was the slightest bit sore.

And still, they nearly won. . . .

 

[Nikolai]

Re: Would BB take a dive?

Belichick would never dishonor the game.

But Hoyer does need some work.

The right answer

 

[TheGodInAGreyHoodie]

Re: Would BB take a dive?

And still, they nearly won. . . .

It was the dolphins.

 

[Haley]

Re: Would BB take a dive?

Removing your Starting QB, Starting WRs, Starting RB, and a some of your starting offensive lineman for an entire game is taking a dive. They sat pretty much everyone who was the slightest bit sore.

I am not seeing that many roster differences. Maybe you can point them out for me.

game 17
Passing CP/AT YDS TD INT
M. Cassel 11/20 168 2 0
T. Brady 3/8 37 1 1

Rushing ATT YDS TD LG
P. Pass 9 26 0 11
M. Cassel 5 13 0 9
K. Faulk 6 12 0 5
H. Evans 6 7 0 3
T. Brady 1 2 0 2
T. Dwight 1 -5 0 -5

Receiving REC YDS TD LG
A. Davis 2 47 0 36
B. Watson 2 39 1 30
B. Childress 3 32 0 21
T. Dwight 2 26 1 17
H. Evans 2 24 0 19
D. Branch 2 19 1 11T
D. Givens 1 18 0 18

Fumbles FUM LOST REC YDS
M. Cassel 2 0 1 0

Kicking FG LG XP PTS
A. Vinatieri 2/2 49 1/1 7
D. Flutie 0/0 0 1/1 1
Punting NO AVG I20 LG
J. Miller 4 37.0 1 50

Kickoff Return NO AVG TD LG
A. Davis 3 36 0 65
T. Dwight 2 33 0 38
P. Pass 1 21 0 21

Punt Returns NO AVG TD LG
T. Dwight 1 6 0 6

Defense T-A SCK INT FF
M. Chatham 8-0 1.0 0 0
E. Hobbs 7-0 0.0 0 0
H. Poteat 6-1 0.0 0 0
J. Sanders 5-0 0.0 0 0
B. Childress 4-0 0.0 0 0
M. Wright 4-0 0.0 0 0
T. Banta-Cain 3-2 0.5 0 0
M. Stone 3-0 0.0 0 0
M. Vrabel 3-2 0.0 0 0
T. Warren 3-1 0.5 0 0
C. Brown 2-0 0.0 0 0
L. Izzo 2-0 0.0 0 0
D. Klecko 2-0 0.0 0 0
R. Seymour 2-0 0.0 0 0
V. Wilfork 2-0 0.0 0 0
M. Beisel 1-1 0.0 0 0
M. Hill 1-1 0.0 0 0
W. McGinest 1-0 0.0 0 0
D. Davis 0-1 0.0 0 0
E. Wilson 0-2 0.0 0 0

game 16
Passing CP/AT YDS TD INT
T. Brady 18/29 185 2 1
D. Flutie 1/1 2 0 0

Rushing ATT YDS TD LG
C. Dillon 26 77 2 10
K. Faulk 10 38 0 8
H. Evans 6 16 0 9
P. Pass 3 14 0 7
T. Brady 3 7 0 3
D. Flutie 2 -1 0 0

Receiving REC YDS TD LG
D. Branch 4 69 0 22
B. Watson 2 37 0 23
T. Brown 3 31 0 13
D. Givens 2 21 0 12
K. Faulk 4 19 0 8
C. Fauria 1 5 0 5
M. Vrabel 2 3 2 2T
P. Pass 1 2 0 2

Fumbles FUM LOST REC YDS
D. Flutie 1 0 1 0
H. Poteat 0 0 0 0
J. Sanders 0 0 1 0
R. Seymour 0 0 1 0

Kicking FG LG XP PTS
A. Vinatieri 1/1 26 4/4 7
Punting NO AVG I20 LG
J. Miller 2 39.5 0 46

Kickoff Returns NO AVG TD LG
K. Faulk 1 16 0 16
B. Johnson 1 23 0 23
P. Pass 1 10 0 10
B. Watson 1 1 0 1

Punt Returns NO AVG TD LG
T. Brown 1 7 0 7
T. Dwight 1 13 0 13

Defense T-A SCK INT FF
R. Seymour 5-0 1.0 0 0
E. Hobbs 4-0 0.0 0 0
M. Vrabel 4-2 1.0 0 0
M. Beisel 3-1 0.0 0 0
H. Poteat 3-1 1.0 0 1
C. Brown 1-1 0.0 0 0
T. Bruschi 1-2 0.0 0 0
R. Colvin 1-1 0.5 0 0
J. Green 1-1 0.0 0 0
A. Hawkins 1-0 0.0 0 0
L. Izzo 1-0 0.0 0 0
W. McGinest 0-2 0.5 0 0
A. Samuel 0-0 0.0 1 0
V. Wilfork 0-1 0.0 0 0
E. Wilson 0-1 0.0 0 0

 

[Batman]

Re: Would BB take a dive?

I am not seeing that many roster differences. Maybe you can point them out for me.

game 17
Passing CP/AT YDS TD INT
M. Cassel 11/20 168 2 0
T. Brady 3/8 37 1 1

Rushing ATT YDS TD LG
P. Pass 9 26 0 11
M. Cassel 5 13 0 9
K. Faulk 6 12 0 5
H. Evans 6 7 0 3
T. Brady 1 2 0 2
T. Dwight 1 -5 0 -5

Receiving REC YDS TD LG
A. Davis 2 47 0 36
B. Watson 2 39 1 30
B. Childress 3 32 0 21
T. Dwight 2 26 1 17
H. Evans 2 24 0 19
D. Branch 2 19 1 11T
D. Givens 1 18 0 18

Fumbles FUM LOST REC YDS
M. Cassel 2 0 1 0

Kicking FG LG XP PTS
A. Vinatieri 2/2 49 1/1 7
D. Flutie 0/0 0 1/1 1
Punting NO AVG I20 LG
J. Miller 4 37.0 1 50

Kickoff Return NO AVG TD LG
A. Davis 3 36 0 65
T. Dwight 2 33 0 38
P. Pass 1 21 0 21

Punt Returns NO AVG TD LG
T. Dwight 1 6 0 6

Defense T-A SCK INT FF
M. Chatham 8-0 1.0 0 0
E. Hobbs 7-0 0.0 0 0
H. Poteat 6-1 0.0 0 0
J. Sanders 5-0 0.0 0 0
B. Childress 4-0 0.0 0 0
M. Wright 4-0 0.0 0 0
T. Banta-Cain 3-2 0.5 0 0
M. Stone 3-0 0.0 0 0
M. Vrabel 3-2 0.0 0 0
T. Warren 3-1 0.5 0 0
C. Brown 2-0 0.0 0 0
L. Izzo 2-0 0.0 0 0
D. Klecko 2-0 0.0 0 0
R. Seymour 2-0 0.0 0 0
V. Wilfork 2-0 0.0 0 0
M. Beisel 1-1 0.0 0 0
M. Hill 1-1 0.0 0 0
W. McGinest 1-0 0.0 0 0
D. Davis 0-1 0.0 0 0
E. Wilson 0-2 0.0 0 0

game 16
Passing CP/AT YDS TD INT
T. Brady 18/29 185 2 1
D. Flutie 1/1 2 0 0

Rushing ATT YDS TD LG
C. Dillon 26 77 2 10
K. Faulk 10 38 0 8
H. Evans 6 16 0 9
P. Pass 3 14 0 7
T. Brady 3 7 0 3
D. Flutie 2 -1 0 0

Receiving REC YDS TD LG
D. Branch 4 69 0 22
B. Watson 2 37 0 23
T. Brown 3 31 0 13
D. Givens 2 21 0 12
K. Faulk 4 19 0 8
C. Fauria 1 5 0 5
M. Vrabel 2 3 2 2T
P. Pass 1 2 0 2

Fumbles FUM LOST REC YDS
D. Flutie 1 0 1 0
H. Poteat 0 0 0 0
J. Sanders 0 0 1 0
R. Seymour 0 0 1 0

Kicking FG LG XP PTS
A. Vinatieri 1/1 26 4/4 7
Punting NO AVG I20 LG
J. Miller 2 39.5 0 46

Kickoff Returns NO AVG TD LG
K. Faulk 1 16 0 16
B. Johnson 1 23 0 23
P. Pass 1 10 0 10
B. Watson 1 1 0 1

Punt Returns NO AVG TD LG
T. Brown 1 7 0 7
T. Dwight 1 13 0 13

Defense T-A SCK INT FF
R. Seymour 5-0 1.0 0 0
E. Hobbs 4-0 0.0 0 0
M. Vrabel 4-2 1.0 0 0
M. Beisel 3-1 0.0 0 0
H. Poteat 3-1 1.0 0 1
C. Brown 1-1 0.0 0 0
T. Bruschi 1-2 0.0 0 0
R. Colvin 1-1 0.5 0 0
J. Green 1-1 0.0 0 0
A. Hawkins 1-0 0.0 0 0
L. Izzo 1-0 0.0 0 0
W. McGinest 0-2 0.5 0 0
A. Samuel 0-0 0.0 1 0
V. Wilfork 0-1 0.0 0 0
E. Wilson 0-1 0.0 0 0

Brady was pulled.

Dillion didn't run

Brown and Fauria didn't catch a pass, Givens was pulled early too. Branch's passes were from Brady

Childress, Davis and Dwight all caught passes

Thats starting QB, RB, WR1,2 and 3 and our starting TE.

not to mention the line adjustments that don't show up.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Re: Would BB take a dive?

Edit: Actually, after viewing the video located here (at the tail end of this 2 minute video):
NFL Game Center: Miami Dolphins at New England Patriots - 2005 Week 17
this doesn't look like an intentional throw away to me and certainly wasn't thrown into the 2nd row. It was thrown close to the sideline of the endzone. Are we talking about the same game??

Thanks-- this contradicts what many have contended.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Re: Would BB take a dive?

Brady was pulled.

Dillion didn't run

26 rushes seems like a very busy day, and resting a starting QB with no week off isn't the same as losing on purpose.

Fauria didn't catch a pass

seems normal to me. and why use Vrabel to catch 2 TDs, if determined to lose?

I'm not saying that they went all out to win, just that the evidence for an intentional loss is far from definative

 

[Jackson 2]

Re: Would BB take a dive?

He did it once (against the Dolphins)....earth remained intact....

Miami Dolphins at New England Patriots - January 1st, 2006 - Pro-Football-Reference.com

He absolutely did. Cassel was asked after the game if he screwed up the pass on purpose. I distinctly remember watching the post-game interview and that question being asked. Cassel, of course, denied it - with a smile.