Interesting claim: The Jets are more talented than the Patriots by a wide margin

[seven]

Of course I'm biased and would think my team is more talented

And if The Bulls didn't have Michael Jordon they ....

Anyone criticize Jordan for having Jackson as a coach?
Or Lombardi for having Bart Starr?
Walsh, Montana?
Where is this coming from?

if the Celtics didn't have Bird Parish and McHale...
****************

Pats have a bunch of guys who catch the ball. This has been an issue for the "more talented" jets, No? Mark bounces balls off of his guys a lot.
Announcer He has got to make that catch..

Above i posted that the pats have many guys that are still unknown.
The draftees have been really solid, most starting, and playing at a high level.

But there is no dominant star, (Moss, eg.) no key receiver. The ball is again spread around, so in that way, yeah. It is a Team.

Steelers in '74. Unknowns like rookies: Ham, Swann and Stallworth.
The kids may or may not continue to succeed,
may or may not someday be worthy of comparisons to those men.
My point is nobody knew them in '74.
By '78? Everyone knew.

Jets have 18 free agents next year?

 

[Ash234532]

And if The Bulls didn't have Michael Jordon they ....

Anyone criticize Jordan for having Jackson as a coach?
Or Lombardi for having Bart Starr?
Walsh, Montana?
Where is this coming from?

if the Celtics didn't have Bird Parish and McHale...
****************

Pats have a bunch of guys who catch the ball. This has been an issue for the "more talented" jets, No? Mark bounces balls off of his guys a lot.
Announcer He has got to make that catch..

Above i posted that the pats have many guys that are still unknown.
The draftees have been really solid, most starting, and playing at a high level.

But there is no dominant star, (Moss, eg.) no key receiver. The ball is again spread around, so in that way, yeah. It is a Team.

Steelers in '74. Unknowns like rookies: Ham, Swann and Stallworth.
The kids may or may not continue to succeed,
may or may not someday be worthy of comparisons to those men.
My point is nobody knew them in '74.
By '78? Everyone knew.

Jets have 18 free agents next year?

The bulls didnt have Jordan for two years, they were a good team not great..... You can even say when Brady went down for a year, your team still went 11-5(an incredible statement about your coaches)..... Brady and Belicheck are what truly elevates this team in talent over the Jets....I think it's a rare combination like Jackson and Jordan, Walsh and Montana, Starr and Lombardi, these are once in a lifetime players/coaches who make ALL the difference, this isn't a slight against the pats, they get not a little but everything from anyone who plays along side them.... Like Deion branch whose a average receiver outside your system, but along side them he's damn scary, your two rookie tight ends look like Antonio ******* gates playing with Brady, rookie tight ends do not develop that fast in any other system I've seen.... Edelman?... Please....Welker? He'd be good anywhere but at this rate he's a hall of famer.....
These are testaments to what Brady and Belicheck are, revel in this, don't take it as a knock on your team

 

[seven]

BJGE got 1000 yards. McCourty 7 INTs. Mayo leads the NFL in tackles.
The supporting cast gets less credit by people who have not watched the team.

The 4 ints on the season is in a big part because the ball is not deflecting off rcvr hands, they Catch the Ball. They don't fumble. they don't miss tackles, get stupid penalties.
How do you measure talent, skill?
Paycheck?
This is a complete team of football players, not one star and a bunch of scrubs.
That is the main dif of opinion expressed in this thread.

 

[Calciumee]

It isn't fantasy football!

The most talent doesn't always work!

If players perform as a unit, it will be better than a player doing it for himself

 

[Coach42]

The bulls didnt have Jordan for two years, they were a good team not great..... You can even say when Brady went down for a year, your team still went 11-5(an incredible statement about your coaches)..... Brady and Belicheck are what truly elevates this team in talent over the Jets....I think it's a rare combination like Jackson and Jordan, Walsh and Montana, Starr and Lombardi, these are once in a lifetime players/coaches who make ALL the difference, this isn't a slight against the pats, they get not a little but everything from anyone who plays along side them.... Like Deion branch whose a average receiver outside your system, but along side them he's damn scary, your two rookie tight ends look like Antonio ******* gates playing with Brady, rookie tight ends do not develop that fast in any other system I've seen.... Edelman?... Please....Welker? He'd be good anywhere but at this rate he's a hall of famer.....
These are testaments to what Brady and Belicheck are, revel in this, don't take it as a knock on your team

There is absolutely no doubt that Brady/Belichick elevate the play of the people around them but to sit there and think that they somehow magically make scrubs into solid starters is ridiculous. Deion Branch had a ton of things go wrong for him up in Seattle but there was a reason Seattle was willing to give up a 1st rounder for him, he's a good football player. Welker KILLED the Pats when he was in Miami and that was without any kind of QB, which was the reason the Pats were willing to deal a 2nd rounder for him. Gronkowski and Tate both could have been 1st rounders if not for major injuries in college (look it up its true). Aaron Hernandez was the unsung hero of Gators championship ask a Gators fan they tried to get the ball to him in every conceivable way including option runs out of the backfield. Woodhead won the DII Heisman. BJGE was one of two backs to rush for 100 yards against Saban's Alabama defense. While they may have never had the "hype machine" behind them these are all very good football players.

I think the 2001 team tarnished the perspective of all future Patriot teams. While that team did have many castoffs and retreads it somehow stuck that the Pats do more with less. Looking back now, with the benefit of hindsight you can see that is simply not true. The Pats have always had talent but that talent values winning over stats and recognition.

 

[Rob0729]

I haven't read the entire thread. So sorry if I am redundant.

The thing is it is perception over reality. Add a little false bravado by Jets fans. The Jets have a lot of names, but they are not neccessarily very good.

I will go through positions:

QB - Ok, nothing to say here other than Sanchez is consider better than he is because of he has had some good comeback games after sucking for most of those games and his draft position.
WR - Jets fans talk about Braylon Edwards as if he is an elite WR. I don't get it. Same with Santonio Holmes. Neither are worlds better than Welker or Branch. A healthy Welker is the best of the group.
TE - Dustin Keller is Ben Watson. A guy who has amazing potential that he shows every now and again, disapears for long, long periods of time. Right now Gronkowski (who might emerge as the most complete TE in the NFL in the next few years) and Hernandez are both more consistent than him as a receiver. Gronk is far better as a blocker. Add Crumpler and the Pats are far more talented at this position.
O-line - I think the Pats win here. Jets fans still think that they have more talent on the o-line. The only guy I would really want on their o-line is Mangold and maybe Ferguson (just because he is younger than the underrated Light).
D-line - Wilfork is easily the most talented of either group. The Pats still have more talent here just because the Jets are devoid of talent on the d-line.
LBs - I think this is where the Jets are most overrated and the Pats may be underrated. Right now, Mayo is the most talented of either group. Harris is inconsistent (elite one year, average the next). Bart Scott is more bluster than production. He good, but not as good as he is credited. Calvin Pace is way overrated and like Merriman seems to have had a huge drop in production a year after his drug suspension. Spikes is solid against the run. Ninkovitch is underrated even by many of us.
Safeties - The Pats are more talented. Chung is solid. Meriweather, although seems to be overrated nationally, is still a good safety. Sanders and Page have played solid at times. The Jets weakness has been passes over the middle and that is in part because of the safeties.
CBs - Revis is still the best, but McCourty has a chance to get at his level. Cromartie is way overrated. We have seen in the last few months that he is an one trick pony and can get burned quite a bit against route running WRs. Arrington is inconsistent, but can play well.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I hate the argument of which team has more talent. I think the Jets are talented. I think the Patriots are talented. Each team is capable of beating the other.

If the Patriots win on Sunday, I don't think that necessarily means that they are more talented. It does mean that they played better on that day and are perhaps a better team overall.

I use the same logic as 2007 Pats/Giants. Giants played better that day. That doesn't mean that they have more talent or are the better overall team.

This.

It's a team game. We know how good Brady is. Every time we tell those guys, he's a "system quarterback."

But 11-5 without Brady tells you something about the Patriot way. "Sure I could go 11-5 throwing to Moss..." but then we got rid of Moss -- now what's the excuse? Right, I know, "Brady's back, doesn't count." Except he's a system quarterback... rinse, repeat.

JEST fans are reflecting the level at which Ryan and their management understand football... and that's collecting talent, not building a team. Rexy understands Xs and Os... that makes him a decent head coach, before 2001. BB has become that one thing he was always looking for - that "black swan", like LT, that changes the very way the game is played.

The rest of the league is still playing catchup... and the JEST seem to be taking big steps backward as they flirt with momentary success.

 

[Fencer]

The Jets' recent injuries may swing the OL comparison solidly to the Pats. E.g., we may be up 3-2 in healthy guys who have ever made the Pro Bowl, and Vollmer may be the best of the rest.

CB is still Jets, because our CBs after McCourty are even more questionable than theirs after Revis.

 

[Haley]

I have never much cared for this whole argument no matter which players/teams were being compared. We are comparing talent, an somewhat unmeasurable, somewhat subjective intangible.

It is akin to looking at a forest of trees and judging which have the most leaves. Sure, there are a few obvious choices but all too soon you aren't exactly sure which to select. Some of the trees have a lot of leaves below the treeline that are hidden to the naked eye. Some of the trees are placed so closely to others that you cannot separate their leaves from the next tree over. Some trees have lost leaves that will return in time while others have lost leaves that shall never grow back. Perhaps some curl up their leaves making no effort to show them. And some trees are closer to the front making them far easier to see and therefore to select.

There is no clear cut more vs less talented once you are in the NFL. There are just the winners and losers, the productive and unproductive. Next Monday, if jets fans want to claim that they were throttled again by a completely untalented team, that just makes them look stupid.

 

[Kid~Brady]

Individual talent does not mean anything in football. As a matter of fact, the Jets did a whole bunch of 1-year signings for all the biggest names they could pick up to try and compete with us. They went out a grabbed as many "big names" as possible. Pats signed a whole bunch of UFL players, players that were cut and rookies and we still have the better record over Jets and the NFL as well, we demolished them 45-3 and is still the team that they'll never overcome.

Jets will NEVER be as good as New England if all they do is continue to look at "individual" stats and who's more popular than the other. Football is played as a team.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Here is how I see it...What receiver are you comparing Braylon Edwards to?

He has just as much pure if not more talent as Welker, and more than Tate, more than Branch.

Do you think Welker would be this good without Tom Brady? Oh wait..we can answer that question: no. He was a nobody in Miami with nothing to show for aside from some special team success. Same thing with Branch. He flourishes alongside Tom Brady's skill. What did he do in Seattle? Not much.

Braylon caught 10 TD passes in 07 from Derek Anderson, who is a backup right now. He then came to the Jets and had another very good season. He was able to do well with different teams unlike Welker.

Cleveland traded Braylon Edwards because Braylon Edwards sucks.

One good season isn't talent. It's a good season.

The problem comes to defining "talent":

Draft position
Combine measureables
Ability to play football
Ability to execute specific styles of football.

The only one that matters is ability to execute your schemes.

I try to explain this here in the burgh. Brady would be much less effective if he had a disaster Pittsburgh line.

R'berger could never run the Pats offense with our line. He can't read defenses, make desicions, and would get killed by our coaching staff. He's too stupid not untalented.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

The only way one would claim this is based up draft position and perceived natural athletic talent when entering the league.

Of course that point of view doesn't count work ethic, ability to avoid mistakes, fit within a system, versatility, and ability to play a specified role.

If you were running a scouting combine and had a bunch of track and field parameters to gauge talent, the Jets would very likely come out on top overall as a roster over the Patriots. But this ain't track and field.

 

[Kid~Brady]

Here is how I see it...What receiver are you comparing Braylon Edwards to?

He has just as much pure if not more talent as Welker, and more than Tate, more than Branch.

Do you think Welker would be this good without Tom Brady? Oh wait..we can answer that question: no. He was a nobody in Miami with nothing to show for aside from some special team success. Same thing with Branch. He flourishes alongside Tom Brady's skill. What did he do in Seattle? Not much.

Braylon caught 10 TD passes in 07 from Derek Anderson, who is a backup right now. He then came to the Jets and had another very good season. He was able to do well with different teams unlike Welker.

Braylon is one of the most overrated receivers ever. To me, he sucks. How are you a receiver and you cant catch?

I'd take any receiver we have over that terrible make shift receiver. Lol, maybe that was a little harsh! But he is overrated to me

 

[The Scrizz]

1. I don't think you read the rest of my post. For that matter, I don't think you read my positional breakdown earlier.

2. Edwards has more speed, a higher vertical leap, and as you said he also has more speed. He has more raw athletic talent than Branch has. If that's what the discussion of the thread is supposed to be about, the Edwards has the edge over Branch. But, comparing the two, I accounted for Edwards disappearing for stretches (consistency issues) even when healthy and dropping easy passes. That's why I put Branch ahead of Edwards.

Oh I read both posts, and perhaps I should have given you props for having Branch ahead of Edwards. I just hate the use of the word "talent" when describing football players and using track and field attributes to support that talent.

If the purpose of the post is to decide who would win a track meet then I guess the Jets are better at WR. But the problem with these "talent" discussions is that people confuse athletic talent with football talent. Chad Jackson proved to us what athletic talent without football talent gets you.

This is where I have my dispute. If that's what the Jets fans are talking about when they say "talent" then they're dumber than I thought.

 

[Triumph]

I'll take Welker, Branch, Gronks and Aaron over anyone of those guys.
They don't (usually) drop easy passes and they are good team leaders.

CATCH RATES

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | WIDE RECEIVERS 2010

Branch 66%
Welker 70%
Gronk 71%
Hernandez 70%


Crotchery 48%
Holmes 55%
Edwards 52%
Keller 54%

 

[WelshPat]

TE - Dustin Keller is Ben Watson.

Thanks for the laugh brah, thats one of the funniest things I've read in a while

Seriously, does he go missing because he sucks or does he go missing because Sanchez throws the ball 10 feet over his head. C'mon man

 

[WelshPat]

CATCH RATES

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | WIDE RECEIVERS 2010

Branch 66%
Welker 70%
Gronk 71%
Hernandez 70%


Crotchery 48%
Holmes 55%
Edwards 52%
Keller 54%

Yeah fantastic, ones catching perfect passes from Brady the others are catching horrible throws from Sanchez

 

[Triumph]

Yeah fantastic, ones catching perfect passes from Brady the others are catching horrible throws from Sanchez

You dont watch many Jets games over there on the telly, do you?

Ask a Jets fan how many times they watched Keller and the rest drop passes between the numbers and get back to me.

 

[JackBauer]

Thanks for the laugh brah, thats one of the funniest things I've read in a while

Seriously, does he go missing because he sucks or does he go missing because Sanchez throws the ball 10 feet over his head. C'mon man

Actually Watson might be better than Keller.

 

[The Scrizz]

Yeah fantastic, ones catching perfect passes from Brady the others are catching horrible throws from Sanchez

Or maybe our receivers are actually where they are supposed to be and catch the ball when it comes to them. Not denying Sanchez is horrible and he definitely has a hand in those stats but the receivers need to take their share of the blame as well.