Interesting claim: The Jets are more talented than the Patriots by a wide margin

[Deus Irae]

And how good would our players be if we had Sanchez at QB and the jets coaching staff?

In the end, I agree that the jets are more talented than we are. HOWEVER, having Brady at QB and having our coaching staff makes our players to be better players, not more talented. We call this "team" and lots of other stuff. To me, it is coaching, leadership, and having the best QB in the nfl.

For example, I have ZERO question that if you swapped Brick and Light, their performance would be different playing for the other team. Light would look worse and Brick would look better. Brick would be a probowl LT for us and perhaps an elite LT.
=========
BOTTOM LINE

As someone else put it, how many games per year you think it's worth to have Brady, Belichick and staff and Kraft. I think that we'd be 4 games a year worse with their ownership, coaching and quarterback.

But the teams are NOT 4 games different each year. One conclusion is that (on average) the rest of the players are better on the jets. We have some that are better of course (Wilfork, Mankins, Mayo) and they have some.

I think you're overestimating Ferguson, and underestimating Light. Although I rated them as "even" for purposes of consensus, I have ZERO question that Light's the better player. Brady is quicker with his release and moves well in the pocket, but Sanchez has more overall escapability, as we've seen fairly often in the 4 games since he came to the NFL.

And Ferguson is going to the Pro Bowl as a Jet, just as Light is going as a Patriot.

 

[mgteich]

I may indeed be overestimating Fergeson, but I do not mean to underestimate Light. I think that he is the #1 free agent target for us and should be franchised if necessary.

I think you're overestimating Ferguson, and underestimating Light. Although I rated them as "even" for purposes of consensus, I have ZERO question that Light's the better player. Brady is quicker with his release and moves well in the pocket, but Sanchez has more overall escapability, as we've seen fairly often in the 4 games since he came to the NFL.

And Ferguson is going to the Pro Bowl as a Jet, just as Light is going as a Patriot.

 

[The Scrizz]

Keller is Sanchez's crutch as he doesn't have the arm or accuracy to get his wideouts the ball on the outside consistently enough.

Gronk is way better than Keller and shouldn't even be a comparison.

Hernandez is better than Keller as well in my opinion. As a rookie and the youngest player in the league he had 10 fewer receptions, the same yards per catch, and more TD's all in 2 fewer games. And this is while competing for balls with another star TE.

At WR how are we to compare talent by anything other than production? By this measure Welker is by far the best of the bunch. Branch's numbers with the Pats are very similiar to Holmes and actually played 1 less game with the Pats than Holmes despite his suspension.

Braylon Edwards had the most yards. Whoop-dee-damn-doo. He's a drop machine, and inconsistent as hell.

Tate's numbers as the 3rd WR option aren't great but consider he had just as many yards and more TD's than Cotchery who is basically a good possesion receiver.

RB. Again going by production, BJGE was better than Greene and was a better rusher than LadyT (LadyT obviously was the better receiver). But then look at Woodhead (who basically had 2 fewer games and didn't even start the year on the team). He had the best Yards per carry of the group, had the same number of TD's as LadyT, had a much better yards per catch.

LadyT is a HOF and had a very good bounce back year, much better than I thought he would, but the numbers clearly show that Woodhead is more productive. He's clearly faster at this point and made just as many big plays as the supposedly more talented LadyT, again in fewer games and with fewer touches.

The O-line is hard to judge but again, look to production. About the same yards per carry, Pats 5 more rushing TD's, fewer sacks (and the 1 thing Sanchez does well is avoid sacks, easily could have been half-dozen more that he escaped that Brady never would have).

The only clear cut instance where you can say the Jets are better is at C and the Pats are clearly better at RT, and LG so again, I'll say the Pats have a more talented OL.

The Pats would have been much better at K if Ghost didn't get injured but even with that, I'll take Graham over Nick "Queer as" Folk. The guy is pathetic from 40+.

Sure you can say it's all Brady but his receivers making the right reads, running the right routes, and being in the right place are all just as important to making him succeed as the other way around. And these are all talents by the way. I think people see talent as "run fast, jump high, be tall" and this is where all this foolish crap comes from. The Pats didn't score 10 points more per game than the Jets while playing the same schedule by being less talented.

 

[Kontradiction]

Well, when you're talking talent on the O-line, it's pretty easy. The same 5 are out there pretty much all the time. WR and TE are a bit more fungible. Your post had Welker/Cotchery, for example, and there's no way that would be the real matchup if you were going in order of who's "really" the team's #1 receiver and so on:

Welker
Branch
Tate

v

Holmes
Edwards
Cotchery

I'm trying to be fair and consistent, because I'd like to limit the "Patriots bias!" as much as possible, and I'm certainly open to discussion and persuasion on this, as I'm trying to find ways to make the comparisons as 'fair' as can be. Keller is a pass catching TE who's built like Hernandez and plays much more like him than he does Gronkowski, since he's not much of a blocker.


My take:

TEs
Gronk
Keller
Crumpler/Hernandez
Hartsock

Outside wideouts
Holmes
Edwards
Branch
Tate

Slot receivers/Third receivers
Welker
Cotchery

I'm assembling talent here, not making a team.

Ah, okay. I see where you're going with that. When assessing the WR's, I did in a split-end, flanker, slot receiver comparison. In that case, the flankers (Tate and Holes) were compared against each other, as were the split ends (Branch and Edwards) and the slot receivers (Cotchery and Welker). With TE's, I did it in order of depth chart, hence the comparisons between Gronk and Keller/Hernandez and Hartsock.

 

[Keyser Söze]

I believe I said this before the season started...

Wrecks is collecting talent, BB is building a team.

 

[Deus Irae]

Ah, okay. I see where you're going with that. When assessing the WR's, I did in a split-end, flanker, slot receiver comparison. In that case, the flankers (Tate and Holes) were compared against each other, as were the split ends (Branch and Edwards) and the slot receivers (Cotchery and Welker). With TE's, I did it in order of depth chart, hence the comparisons between Gronk and Keller/Hernandez and Hartsock.

Feel free to make your own complete list, and I'll be happy to talk about the agreements (Gronk #1 overall TE) and disagreements (I'd rate Edwards above Branch, because we're talking talent rather than fit, for example). Frankly, I'm disappointed because I'd hoped this thread would draw in some Jets fans for some legitimate back-and-forth about some spots.

 

[stinkypete]

The Jets are highly overrated on paper. Their defense was above average, not elite, and their skill position players are all inconsistent as hell and disappear for stretches. The secondary is Revis and a bunch of guys.

 

[nabwong]

BJGE and Woody are system running backs

Branch, Welker, Tate and Edelman are system receivers

Gronk, Hernandez and Alge are system tight ends

Brady is a system QB

This is one heck of a system though.

 

[Kontradiction]

Feel free to make your own complete list, and I'll be happy to talk about the agreements (Gronk #1 overall TE) and disagreements (I'd rate Edwards above Branch, because we're talking talent rather than fit, for example). Frankly, I'm disappointed because I'd hoped this thread would draw in some Jets fans for some legitimate back-and-forth about some spots.

Raw talent-wise, Braylon is better than Deion. I put Deion ahead of Braylon because Braylon has a tendency to drop some easy passes and disappear for stretches of time whereas Deion is usually sure-handed and is a little more consistent (unless he's injured). I gave rating Edwards ahead of Branch a lot of thought when I compiled the list, though.

 

[Fahrenhype]

I don't know why any of you willingly subject yourselves to reading stuff on a forum like that. It probably has a more deleterious effect on your brain than meth. Which I'm sure a few of them can hook you up with.

 

[The Scrizz]

Raw talent-wise, Braylon is better than Deion. I put Deion ahead of Braylon because Braylon has a tendency to drop some easy passes and disappear for stretches of time whereas Deion is usually sure-handed and is a little more consistent (unless he's injured). I gave rating Edwards ahead of Branch a lot of thought when I compiled the list, though.

What raw talent does Edwards possess other than being tall and running fast? He doesn't run any routes, his hands are crap. I think route-running, reading the defense, and actually consistently catching the ball are much more important talents for a succesful wide receiver than speed, jumping, height... getting open and then catching the ball are the two most important talents for WR to have with RAC coming next. I don't see Edwards as being anything other than average at any of those things.

 

[Ring 6]

What raw talent does Edwards possess other than being tall and running fast? He doesn't run any routes, his hands are crap. I think route-running, reading the defense, and actually consistently catching the ball are much more important talents for a succesful wide receiver than speed, jumping, height... getting open and then catching the ball are the two most important talents for WR to have with RAC coming next. I don't see Edwards as being anything other than average at any of those things.

This is the thing. Taelnt SHOULD be defined as the abilityto contribute to your team winning. I don't really care how many measurables or abiolity to run, jump or win a track and field meet or a basketball game you have, the ability to consistently do all of the things required of your position and contributing to your team winning is what talent really is.
Braylon Edwards played something like 1000 football plays this season. He caught a paltry 53 passes. Out of those 53 there were probably 4 or 5 that displayed exceptional athletic ability...here called 'talent'.
Wes Welker, on the other hand caught 86 passes, and used his 'talent' not only to get those catches, but to use effort and quickness to turn them into bigger gains. Additionally Welker is known as one of the best blocking WRs in the NFL, and Edwards is consistently disinterested in blocking.
If we are going to revive 'The Superstars' or have a track and field competition, Edwards may well be more talented but if we are talking about playing the position of WR and contributing to your team winning, Welker is so much more talented there shouldnt even be a discussion.

 

[PlainOldEd]

I'll take Welker, Branch, Gronks and Aaron over anyone of those guys.
They don't (usually) drop easy passes and they are good team leaders.

:yeahthat::agree:

 

[Coach42]

Here is how I see it...What receiver are you comparing Braylon Edwards to?

He has just as much pure if not more talent as Welker, and more than Tate, more than Branch.

Do you think Welker would be this good without Tom Brady? Oh wait..we can answer that question: no. He was a nobody in Miami with nothing to show for aside from some special team success. Same thing with Branch. He flourishes alongside Tom Brady's skill. What did he do in Seattle? Not much.

Braylon caught 10 TD passes in 07 from Derek Anderson, who is a backup right now. He then came to the Jets and had another very good season. He was able to do well with different teams unlike Welker.

Welker is better than Edwards in every conceivable way. Edwards is an athlete trying to play football, Welker is a football player. Welker was very good in Miami, Miami was just terrible at the time he was there. There is a reason we traded a second round pick for and it wasn't just on a "hunch". Needless to say there wont be any second round picks coming the Jets way for Edwards.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

Welker > Edwards

 

[The Scrizz]

Welker > Edwards

Branch > Edwards

 

[Kontradiction]

What raw talent does Edwards possess other than being tall and running fast? He doesn't run any routes, his hands are crap. I think route-running, reading the defense, and actually consistently catching the ball are much more important talents for a succesful wide receiver than speed, jumping, height... getting open and then catching the ball are the two most important talents for WR to have with RAC coming next. I don't see Edwards as being anything other than average at any of those things.

1. I don't think you read the rest of my post. For that matter, I don't think you read my positional breakdown earlier.

2. Edwards has more speed, a higher vertical leap, and as you said he also has more speed. He has more raw athletic talent than Branch has. If that's what the discussion of the thread is supposed to be about, the Edwards has the edge over Branch. But, comparing the two, I accounted for Edwards disappearing for stretches (consistency issues) even when healthy and dropping easy passes. That's why I put Branch ahead of Edwards.

 

[Uncle Rico]

This is the thing. Taelnt SHOULD be defined as the abilityto contribute to your team winning. I don't really care how many measurables or abiolity to run, jump or win a track and field meet or a basketball game you have, the ability to consistently do all of the things required of your position and contributing to your team winning is what talent really is.
Braylon Edwards played something like 1000 football plays this season. He caught a paltry 53 passes. Out of those 53 there were probably 4 or 5 that displayed exceptional athletic ability...here called 'talent'.
Wes Welker, on the other hand caught 86 passes, and used his 'talent' not only to get those catches, but to use effort and quickness to turn them into bigger gains. Additionally Welker is known as one of the best blocking WRs in the NFL, and Edwards is consistently disinterested in blocking.
If we are going to revive 'The Superstars' or have a track and field competition, Edwards may well be more talented but if we are talking about playing the position of WR and contributing to your team winning, Welker is so much more talented there shouldnt even be a discussion.

This, X 53 + practice squad etc., is what separates the Patriots from the rest of the NFL since 2001.

 

[seven]

If I had not watched the Pats, maybe read down the list of players names,
I would think, who?
Anyone who has not seen this team, perhaps making judgments by looking at stats, reputation, whatever Colin Cowherd says, etc, is going to have no clue.

Think of how we normally feel about rookies, for example?
They don't know what this list means, in reality, on the field.
McCourty, Gronkowski, Cunningham, Spikes, Price, Hernandez, Meskó, Deaderick. Picks 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, 10.

When has this ever happened?
Unpossible.

Merry Christmas.

Alge Crumpler Crumpling, woody can't be tackled,
and a McCourty Pick for TD.

green thinks, Woodhead, 'we' cut him, how good can he be?
They have not watched the team.

They have not seen the precise execution. The number of weapons, formations, schemes, variations. That all these mofos Block too?
And nobody has figured them out. Arguably More dangerous at this moment in the season than the great '07 team, because there is no book, no formula.

I am so spoiled by them, I watch other teams and instantly think, what is the problem? Why can't you do that? Why didn't you catch that ball? Etc. .

Dilfer is no D expert ("Jets must read Tom's Mind, Information is Power")
but he can watch film. After the Monday Night Massacre:
"They used to come at you with four to six different formations. Now, they have so many variations, one tight end, two tight ends, three tight ends. I just broke down the recent Jets game. In their first 27 regular plays -- I excluded three goal-line plays -- they showed 27 different formations and at least a dozen different personnel groupings."

 

[Ash234532]

I'm a Jets fan and I find this thread hysterical.... I really dont think you pat fans understand what you have here.... You possibly have the GREATEST coach in a sport where the head coach means so much and then a once in a LIFETIME player( like a Jordan, or Gretzky), a player who is playing at such a ridicoulis level, who elevates every other persons game to his level.....
I mean honestly take Brady off this team, your offense which is so dynamic would be good but great? As for your young defense, sure they're getting better , but it's your offense that really fuels your defense, it's easier to take chances when your up by 30 points, not to mention it really limits what other teams can do on offense.....

Take Sanchez off the jets offense, would we really suffer the same drop as you would without Brady? Hell we might even get better in some aspects...
This isn't a slight on your team, it's what it is, Brady is insane, his passes are like always in stride, like always!!!! Do you even see other qbs even remotely come close to him?
Saying this as a jets fan hurts but it's the truth, it's going to take a complete game from us and possibly some trickery to pull this one out...
Good luck

Of course I'm biased and would think my team is more talented