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Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by mikey, Mar 16, 2006.

  1. mikey

    mikey Rookie

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    David Givens - 7th round!

    Adam Vinatieri - Undrafted!

    Where is their sense of gratitude??

    Who would have heard of a David Givens or an Adam Vinatieri if not for the Patriots??

    Who took the risk and gave them the opportunities?

    And this is how they repay us??

    They should have done what Brady and Bruschi did: take a paycut and stay with the team.

    :D

    .
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2006
  2. Feep_FLA

    Feep_FLA Rookie

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    I see your point and honestly feel your pain. But each player is an individual person/player. I don't hold any grudges and definately don't feel they "owe" their team anything. Just my take. :rocker:
  3. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    Why don't you add Andruzzi and Patten to the list...neither was drafted..both left...
  4. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think they do owe the Patriots a thank you.
    By being part of this organization, their value on the market has risen to more than the Patriots think they are worth.

    If Givens and Vinatieri played for other teams the rest of their career, BB would be signing them because their percieved value would be less than what they would contribute here.

    Its kind iof like this.
    By being a PAtriot the rest of the league thinks you are better than you are.
    If oyu are a Cardinal or a Lion the rest of the league thinks you are worse than you are.


    You cant just measure it in stats, but I will to simplify the point.

    If David Givens is a 70 catch WR for Tom Brady, and a 50 catch WR for Steve McNair, and Joe Blow is a 50 catch WR for Steve McNair but would be a 70 catch WR for Tom Brady, Givens gets paid like a 70 catch guy, and Joe Blow gets paid like a 50 catch guy. We end up with the 'same player' and get him a lot cheaper.

    What would you do in that case if you were either guy?

    The evidence of this is how many FAs we sign are better here than they were on their last team, and a huge majority of those that leave arent as good where they go as they were here.

    We take other teams 'castoffs' and other teams go after our FAs. Yet we keep winning. The same player is better here than elsewhere and worse when he leaves. OF COURSE we turn over the roster, because we keep the talent level about the same at a lower cost. Add in our drafting prowess, and sometimes the better replacement is in the wings already.

    An analogy to baseball.
    Leo Mazzone is regarded as a genius pitching coach.
    The Braves take a sucky pitcher from another team and e becomes a good pithcer paid like he is bad.
    A Bravers pitcher becomes a FA, and teams line up to sign a great pticher. They lack the coaching and he becomes a decent pitcher at a very high price.
  5. 363839

    363839 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    These are great points, Andy.

    Has there ever been an era in NFL history where Patriots players were so sought after?

    Isn't it beautiful?!
  6. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Willie McGinest is a clutch, big play guy.

    What does Cleveland get out of him when they are rarely in the position to have a clutch big play?

    Think about the game winning, game changing plays Willie has made here.

    What would the general opinion of Willie be in he was playing on a 6-10 team, and didnt have the players around him to create the big play opportunities
  7. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    Great point AJ...absolutely...and there is nothing wrong with it..It's just that fans have to understand this..be prepared when players leave and know there are players that are comparable or better that are undervalued all around the league. The trick is to find them...and so far BB/SP have done a solid job...last year wasn't a good one..but still that is OK...Take a look at all the years..not one like some short sighted people.
  8. OldEnglandPatriot

    OldEnglandPatriot Rookie

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    I imagine the players feel that if the Patriots hadn't drafted them (Givens) or picked them up (Vinatieri) then they would have made it somewhere else.

    You've got to have that sort of self-belief to be an NFL player, I imagine.
  9. jczxohn1

    jczxohn1 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What amazes me is how quickly Pats FA's get picked up at above-market rates and how seldom they make the Pro Bowl. With 3 new BB-tree coaches in the league, I guess it isn't too surprising.
  10. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    It's called freedom and the desire to reach and be rewarded for your hard work. It's why some people are more successful in life personal/work than others.

    They owe us no more than we owe all the other players who toil away and get cut in an instant. This is where I have a big problem with the people who say athletes owe this and owe that.

    We're not there when their friends get cut, maybe causing financial problems or financial ruins. Living away from their families to get ahead and coming home empty handed. We don't see all that anguish...they do and thus they take the money when they can.

    It's Athletic Capitalism at it's most rewarding...they deserve it.
  11. PatsSteve1

    PatsSteve1 Rookie

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    I believe both Givens and Willie did than the Patriots and certainly didn't say anything disparaging about the organization. All players 'owe' thier team is thier best play while under contract. All the Patriots UFA's were either no longer under contract or released(why isn't that disloyal) so where they sign next is thier business.
  12. smg93

    smg93 Rookie

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    Great post. The Pats may have brought them in to the league, but if they didn't work hard and contribute, we may never have been as successful as we were in the salary cap era because in order to get far in this league you always have to find over achievers in your system.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2006
  13. mikey

    mikey Rookie

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    Mr. Givens is dammed lucky to have played for the Patriots and have Tom Brady threw him the ball.

    Where would Mr. Givens be if he were drafted by Detroit? or Oakland? or New Orleans?

    Would David even be in the league today if Joey Harrington were the one throwing the ball?

    Did Mr. Givens already forget the off-season Brady spent trying to help him improve and become the player he is today?

    If David were drafted by any team other than the Patriots , would he see the light of day, let alone the $24M he is getting from Tennessee?

    Givens should have recognized this reality:

    David Givens is a creation of Belichick and Brady. Just as David Patten was a creation of Belichick and Brady.

    Without Belichick and Brady, there is no David Givens. It is that simple.

    And for all things done for him, Givens turned his back on the only team that would give him the opportunities to play in the league.

    .
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2006
  14. Alk

    Alk Rookie

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    I could be wrong here but I don't think we're the ONLY team that would have given him a chance just because we drafted him in the 7th. round. Someone else would have drafted him. If not he would have gotten in as a FA. The NFL is a business. If we had just flat released Givens, would you feel this way towards the Patriots organization? I don't like the fact that he's not a Patriot anymore but I understand.
  15. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    Your liberalism has gotten the best of you Mikey...it's called Free Agency for a reason, and it's actually good for the league because it is great for the TV ratings which is where the $$$ comes from.
  16. Garbanza

    Garbanza Rookie

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    Most people work to earn as much as they can. Good for them and good luck. I begrudge them nothing and thank them plenty for their contributions while wearing the Patriots uniform.

    In this new age of sports in America - where neither the team, nor the player, exhibits much loyalty - the fan must remain loyal to the jersey, not the NAME on the jersey. Just a sad fact of today's sports scene.
  17. Alk

    Alk Rookie

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    Hey Garb. Would you be a dear and go fetch me a green bear? Kay' thanks.... :eat1:
  18. mtbykr

    mtbykr Rookie

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    well

    I am sure givens will find out the hard way when he has mcnair and his backup (we all know mcnair will get hurt this season) throwing him the ball! With that said i wish him the best, and thank him for the memories! As far as willie goes, he wasn't contacted by the pats (from what i have heard) regarding an new contract, so i don't fault him--but still wish he was here!
  19. Garbanza

    Garbanza Rookie

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    Can't ......too busy making a lasagna
  20. scout

    scout Rookie

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    #15 Jersey

    The players leaving for free agency owe nothing to the Patriots. Neal may be next in line and in some people's minds would owe more to the Patriots then the other players because of his short football career. As much as the Patriots taught him and tooled him, he worked his butt off. The Patriots were rewarded by his play in the starting lineup which in combination with the other team members produced wins. He is now a f.a. and may be looking for a great paycheck. You can't blame him for that, nor can you say he owes the Patriots anything but gratitude. As for Willie, I'm not sure the money is really going to be worth it. In the big picture, Willie is the all-time sack leader in the NFL playoffs. Do you think he will ever add to his total? How much recogintion would he have gotten with each sack playing for the Patriots in the nationally televised games, which of course would lead to endorsements. Coming from Southern Cal. I would think he bought a house there early in his career. How many millions is that house worth today? Did he add up his net worth, I bet it dwarfed the Cleveland bonus. Was it worth it? I bet he has doupts sitting in front of the tv while watching the Patriots in the playoffs come this December.

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