Improve The defense

[MaineMan]

Unfortunately, that is exactly what I mean.

The defense played very well indeed. They have exceeded all expectation throughout the season as well as yesterday. The defense is the youngest in the nfl and will continue to improve. Belichick did a truly amazing job with this patchwork of youngsters, three bowl level vets, some guys of the street and few OK vets. Belichick deserves to be DC of the year.

Going into the game, we were not heavily favored because our defense could play like a top 15 defense (which they did). We were favored because we had the best offense in the nfl. Unfortunatley, we need to build a top 5 defense. For the patriots, the top offense plus an average defense is just not enough to get the job done. The defense must be able to win games. The offense CANNOT be routinely counted on, and apparently not in a clutch situations.

How serious is the situation. Well, we were reduced to fake punts and onside kicks to try to make up for the ineptness of the offense. Brady had forever to pass. If anyone were told Saturday how much time Brady would have, the would have taken the over and bet on the patriots.

The long drive by the patriots at the end of the game (that handed the game to the jets) was truly pathetic. There is no way that it made sense that Brady shouldn't be taking some chances in that situation. This was the time to put the team on his back and FINISH. Instead of trying to take what we needed, we accepted what was given. Perhaps someday we will find out what happened. There are a dozen other teams who would have put more faith in their quarterback than we did. Maybe Brady was injured. Maybe he was afraid to be hit again and again. Maybe we really need a better OC. How can a 14-2 team with the best offense in league lack confidence?

Drafting and securing players to be able to play against the jets' scheme is simply not enough, The jets (or someone else) will simply have another scheme next time.

I agree with this assessment 100%, except to point out that what hindered our offense and helped this particular Jets scheme to succeed was that we have very limited big-play, quick score capability right now. Adding some of that back in to both the running and passing games would certainly help.

[So, I guess that means I actually agree with your assessment, like, 95%? ]

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Unfortunately, that is exactly what I mean.

The defense played very well indeed. They have exceeded all expectation throughout the season as well as yesterday. The defense is the youngest in the nfl and will continue to improve. Belichick did a truly amazing job with this patchwork of youngsters, three bowl level vets, some guys of the street and few OK vets. Belichick deserves to be DC of the year.

Going into the game, we were not heavily favored because our defense could play like a top 15 defense (which they did). We were favored because we had the best offense in the nfl. Unfortunatley, we need to build a top 5 defense. For the patriots, the top offense plus an average defense is just not enough to get the job done. The defense must be able to win games. The offense CANNOT be routinely counted on, and apparently not in a clutch situations.

How serious is the situation. Well, we were reduced to fake punts and onside kicks to try to make up for the ineptness of the offense. Brady had forever to pass. If anyone were told Saturday how much time Brady would have, the would have taken the over and bet on the patriots.

The long drive by the patriots at the end of the game (that handed the game to the jets) was truly pathetic. There is no way that it made sense that Brady shouldn't be taking some chances in that situation. This was the time to put the team on his back and FINISH. Instead of trying to take what we needed, we accepted what was given. Perhaps someday we will find out what happened. There are a dozen other teams who would have put more faith in their quarterback than we did. Maybe Brady was injured. Maybe he was afraid to be hit again and again. Maybe we really need a better OC. How can a 14-2 team with the best offense in league lack confidence?

Drafting and securing players to be able to play against the jets' scheme is simply not enough, The jets (or someone else) will simply have another scheme next time.

Your analysis is spot on.

Between this and your first post it seems to me that we need.....

1.) A Pass rush! It helps the DB's and can help field position, even when the opposing offense has a short field. ie: Ryan Kerrigan

2.) At least one large physical reciever with speed capable of beating jams and/or working the middle of the field. ie: Julio Jones.

3.) A RB that is a threat to run hard between the tackles as well as leak out of the backfield as a checkdown receiving threat. ie: Thomas of K State.

 

[Warren94]

any chance to get chad greenway?

it certainly would make the draft less stressful on defense

Minnesota plays in a 4-3 and no thanks on Greenway

 

[TriplecHamp]

Add some speed at ILB, FS, and a couple of passrushers. There is always room for DE help as well.

 

[MaineMan]

Your analysis is spot on.

Between this and your first post it seems to me that we need.....

1.) A Pass rush! It helps the DB's and can help field position, even when the opposing offense has a short field. ie: Ryan Kerrigan

2.) At least one large physical reciever with speed capable of beating jams and/or working the middle of the field. ie: Julio Jones.

3.) A RB that is a threat to run hard between the tackles as well as leak out of the backfield as a checkdown receiving threat. ie: Thomas of K State.

Yeah, I'm not sure.

1) In past BB defenses (the Superbowl-winning years), there was never really just one or two edge-rushers, the pass rush came from everywhere along the front seven at various times. I'm not saying we can't use a guy who can get a better rush off the edge, just that, without other moving parts (DE) being upgraded, an edge-rusher by himself isn't going to improve the pass rush very much. [Also - pet peeve - such a guy has to be aware of a "chipping" RB sliding out behind him for a dump-off pass, aware enough to break off his rush and cover instead. Crable was horrible at this and I've seen Guyton and TBC blow it regularly, too. Ninkovich and Cunningham are getting much better.]

2) Right now, all we have are guys who can work the middle of the field (including two strong TEs). What we don't have are guys who can effectively work the sidelines and the deep zones, as well as working the middle. We really appear to have too many "specialists" working in the same general vicinity.

3) That's 2/3 of what we need in a new RB, IMO. The other necessary quality is the ability to make yardage to and beyond the 2nd level (maybe by being able to make an effective second cut to the outside) without being totally reliant on "extra" blocking from a TE (or two!) and/or a FB - which reduces the number of potential play-action targets.

 

[mgteich]

We need to be more serious!

If our goal is to be a top 5 defense, we are seriously deficient at DE and OLB.

If our goal is to be a top 15 defense, then we're fine. We just need to add a front seven stud with our first pick.

We carry 12 DL's and OLB's. We have one future HOFer in Wilfork. We believe that Cunningham is one of the 12 for the future. We hope that Ty Warren is one of the 12.

Would we be surprised if any of the following were beaten out for a roster spot? Forget future HOFers, do we really want any of these players starting on a top 5 defense? How dependable to we expect any of them to be?

Banta-Cain
Ninkovich
Moore
Murrell
Wright
Brace
Deaderick
Pryor
Love
Cohen

However, the BOTTOM LINE is that we likely go into next season with many of these same players, hoping for improvement and health.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Yeah, I'm not sure.

1) In past BB defenses (the Superbowl-winning years), there was never really just one or two edge-rushers, the pass rush came from everywhere along the front seven at various times. I'm not saying we can't use a guy who can get a better rush off the edge, just that, without other moving parts (DE) being upgraded, an edge-rusher by himself isn't going to improve the pass rush very much. [Also - pet peeve - such a guy has to be aware of a "chipping" RB sliding out behind him for a dump-off pass, aware enough to break off his rush and cover instead. Crable was horrible at this and I've seen Guyton and TBC blow it regularly, too. Ninkovich and Cunningham are getting much better.]

2) Right now, all we have are guys who can work the middle of the field (including two strong TEs). What we don't have are guys who can effectively work the sidelines and the deep zones, as well as working the middle. We really appear to have too many "specialists" working in the same general vicinity.

3) That's 2/3 of what we need in a new RB, IMO. The other necessary quality is the ability to make yardage to and beyond the 2nd level (maybe by being able to make an effective second cut to the outside) without being totally reliant on "extra" blocking from a TE (or two!) and/or a FB - which reduces the number of potential play-action targets.

1.) Is classic chicken or the egg. If we had a pass rushing demon, ala Willie, does that allow BB to then design more exotic blitz schemes, knowing the opposing O-Line will have protections slanted against our pass rush demon? Or does BB design these exotic blitz packages against an offense with plenty of extra blockers and chippers because the opposing offense is totally disrespecting our current OLB's and letting their OT's man up with no help?

2.) If we had a beastly WR in the middle, wouldn't that allow our current crop of WR's to work the boundries and explore more of the route tree?

3.) BB will never put out there a RB that fumbles or is incapable of picking up the blitz. These type guys are rare and like pass rushers, are overdrafted. Since BB never reaches early, I suspect he settles for whatever falls to us.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

We need to be more serious!

If our goal is to be a top 5 defense, we are seriously deficient at DE and OLB.

If our goal is to be a top 15 defense, then we're fine. We just need to add a front seven stud with our first pick.

We carry 12 DL's and OLB's. We have one future HOFer in Wilfork. We believe that Cunningham is one of the 12 for the future. We hope that Ty Warren is one of the 12.

Would we be surprised if any of the following were beaten out for a roster spot? Forget future HOFers, do we really want any of these players starting on a top 5 defense? How dependable to we expect any of them to be?

Banta-Cain
Ninkovich
Moore
Murrell
Wright
Brace
Deaderick
Pryor
Love
Cohen

However, the BOTTOM LINE is that we likely go into next season with many of these same players, hoping for improvement and health.

If you think about it, our 2010 defense was respectable ONLY because they created a boatload of turnovers.

Clearly upgrading a few key spots, DE and OLB and CB (nickel and dime) and we are that close to being a top 5 defense.

While upgrading the DE spot is difficult with this draft, there are many options for upgrading the OLB and CB positions with this draft.

 

[Keyser Söze]

Sign Champ Bailey, adress DE/OLB...FS via the draft.

 

[ayjackson]

Odd, I was under the impression the defense kept the game close despite the offense & KR team, and the PR team on that fake punt fiasco, leaving them short fields to defend.

They did, but against a rather mediocre offense. The Jets defence would have shut out their offense yesterday, we allowed 28 points. They`re hurt by injuries and youth, but I don`t think it`s a coincidence that since the offence became a focal part of the team (rather than balance), we haven`t won a Superbowl. I think we should strive to be winning games like yesterday`s 24-10, not 38-28.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

They did, but against a rather mediocre offense. The Jets defence would have shut out their offense yesterday, we allowed 28 points. They`re hurt by injuries and youth, but I don`t think it`s a coincidence that since the offence became a focal part of the team (rather than balance), we haven`t won a Superbowl. I think we should strive to be winning games like yesterday`s 24-10, not 38-28.

The Jest may not be the most explosive offense, but frankly the biggest issue with the defense was having 3 NT types starting and playing much of the game. There was just no pressure up the middle.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Truth be told, I guess it doesn't matter how many top flight DB's we have, if we can't get to the QB, or at least put pressure on him.

Bingo. Sanchez had too much time to throw. If you can't rattle the QB and make him fire off some passes quicker than he wants, he's gonna find an open man going ALL THE WAY ACROSS the field. Pass rush is a most. DE/OLB. We all know the drill. The tough question is finding the guy that fits the BB mold at #17. Just look at the way Clay Matthews affects games. He made the Green Bay game that much tougher because Brady had to have a clock 1-2-3, gotta get rid of it NOW!

Cunningham looks like he will be a solid player. But he's not a dominating passrusher, a guy that makes the QB's mental alarm clock go off and if it doesn't will force a sack or fumble.

I'm not laying this all on the defense. But the Jets were remarkable efficient in the red zone. Scoring touchdowns all the times they got down there except for the one time they missed the FG. That defense is too vulnerable down there because it doesn't make the offense uncomfortable at what its doing.

 

[ATippett56]

According to NFL Draft Scout, the following overall ratings for potential 3-4 outside linebackers:

Aldon Smith, Missouri #11
Ryan Kerrigan, Purdue #18
Jeremy Beal, Oklahoma #49
Sam Acho, Texas #95

NFL Draft Scout----Powered By: The Sports Xchange

 

[upstater1]

According to NFL Draft Scout, the following overall ratings for potential 3-4 outside linebackers:

Aldon Smith, Missouri #11
Ryan Kerrigan, Purdue #18
Jeremy Beal, Oklahoma #49
Sam Acho, Texas #95

NFL Draft Scout----Powered By: The Sports Xchange

That's it?

I saw some other guys that are plus 250 pounds. I haven't seen them play though so I don't know about their skillsets, but there are a lot of big guys at 250+.

 

[JackBauer]

Get Tully Banta-Cain off the team. If there's a more useless sap on the roster, I'd be shocked.

 

[patsfan55]

In the end, having the best quarterback in the nfl and the best offense is not enough. We have lost our last 3 playoff games, and are 50% since winning our last Super Bowl.

We just can't win without a top defense, so we need to do more to make it happen.

Let's take a look at the 2003/2004 combined defense vs the defense that would start 2011 season

de-Seymour vs Warren (BIG downgrade)
dt-Wash/Traylor/Wilfork vs Wilfork (decent upgrade)
de-Warren vs Brace (slight downgrade)
olb-Willie vs Cunningham (ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?)
ilb-Bruschi vs Mayo (this one's tough, I love Mayo, but man Bru was such a big playmaker in key situations)
ilb-Ted Johnson vs Spikes (close to a wash)
olb-Vrabel vs Ninkovich (ugh, especially setting the edge..just ugh)
cb-Law vs McCourty (see Spikes, these guys could be clones of their predecessors)
s-Rodney vs Meriweather (hold on while I clean the puke from my computer)
s-Geno vs Chung/Sanders (heeyyyy we have an upgrade...woohoo! super bowl here we co..wait)
cb-Asante vs Bodden (wash..Asante was still erratic then)

So, yeah unfortunately we're not even close to those defenses. I hadn't really truly accepted that fact until yesterday, but it's true

 

[patsfan55]

Get Tully Banta-Cain off the team. If there's a more useless sap on the roster, I'd be shocked.

Pretty sure he still has a lot due on his bonus...great

He's the Adrian Beltre of football

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Pretty sure he still has a lot due on his bonus...great

He's the Adrian Beltre of football

Not sure that is entirely fair.

TBC is good at what he does, pin his ears back and rush with his hair on fire. Asking him to do anything else takes him out of his comfort zone.

He is our third and long designated pass rusher. Unfortunately because the D Line was decimated by injuries, and the secondary was still in diapers most of the year, we did not have a lot of designated third and longs in which to cut TBC lose.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

This thread needs Dr Phil

At some point, there has to be some conclusion on what 2010 meant and was suppose to mean. Look at the outlook:

Preseason 10-6 to 8-8. Way young
3-1 Moss trade- Belichick is giving up on the season
9-2- Jets will establish their dominance
14-2- Wow SB favorites
Jan 17- They suck the team needs an overhaul.

Somewhere is the answer. Mayock predicted the Pats would lose. Gave a good explanation but also said that with the youth, this team's best football is ahead.

This team went undefeated and lost three times to a "Ryan" defense. The whole offseason will be used to review and decipher. My guess is BB thought the Jets would be blitz happy and not use the strategy they did.

A few years back, I saw an interview with Polian where he said spending big money on weapons was justified because 3 years is required for a fully functioning offense.
This offense was revamped mid season with rookies, second year UDFA' and a trade. Anyone who thinks this offense would never be vunerable is nuts. I bet BB would have preferred to keep Moss but his behavior made that not feasible.

Also, for the hysteria, about a "deep threat". It seems forgot that Price had the fastest time at the 2010 combine. He has good size so it'a amazing people think BB didn't realize this and think ahead.

As far as the defense. Why does everyone assume Bodden and Warren are not coming back? "We need a DE!". T Warren is a DE.

"We need a pass rush". Why is it shocking to have your two best pressure Dline guys out and have a drop off in pressure?

Here's my D wish list:

The NFL elite secondary. If that means a FA or going up in the draft and getting an elite CB, that fine.

A flexible Dline that would ideally have the personnel to pressure with four.

Smart, flexible linebackers.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Let's take a look at the 2003/2004 combined defense vs the defense that would start 2011 season

de-Seymour vs Warren (BIG downgrade)
dt-Wash/Traylor/Wilfork vs Wilfork (decent upgrade)
de-Warren vs Brace (slight downgrade)
olb-Willie vs Cunningham (ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?)
ilb-Bruschi vs Mayo (this one's tough, I love Mayo, but man Bru was such a big playmaker in key situations)
ilb-Ted Johnson vs Spikes (close to a wash)
olb-Vrabel vs Ninkovich (ugh, especially setting the edge..just ugh)
cb-Law vs McCourty (see Spikes, these guys could be clones of their predecessors)
s-Rodney vs Meriweather (hold on while I clean the puke from my computer)
s-Geno vs Chung/Sanders (heeyyyy we have an upgrade...woohoo! super bowl here we co..wait)
cb-Asante vs Bodden (wash..Asante was still erratic then)

So, yeah unfortunately we're not even close to those defenses. I hadn't really truly accepted that fact until yesterday, but it's true

This "analysis" is absolutely absurd.

If you want to be helpful compare the 2010 defense to the late 1990's teams.

In the dynasty, the core players were already 5/6/7/8 year vets.

It's completely idiotic to compare rookies and second year players to experienced personnel in their prime who had been playing together for years.