Welcome to PatsFans.com

Immigration is not a liberal/conservative issue

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Patters, Feb 24, 2006.

  1. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    18,715
    Likes Received:
    260
    Ratings:
    +471 / 18 / -17

    Although liberals and conservatives have their differences on such issues as human rights abuses and the rights of illegal immigrants, by and large I think it's incorrect to see immigration as a liberal/conservative issue.

    The fact is among those who favor the current immigration policies are many Republicans, including nonunion contractors, farmers, and immigrant populations themselves. Although immigrants vote Democratic, they don't vote that way by huge margins. So, among those Republicans who favor the current immigration policies are many Cubans and other Latinos, Asians, and Arabs. At the same time many labor unions want stricter policies because cheap illegal labor constitutes a threat to them. And among the states that are notorious for looking the other way with regard to illegal immigrants are conservative states like Texas, where righties would rather underpay an illegal immigrant than pay someone a working wage.
     
  2. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    41,158
    Likes Received:
    250
    Ratings:
    +967 / 2 / -9

    Immigration into any country should be through the legal process, those that come otherwise are criminals and should be deported.

    Come through the front door as our ancestors did, you will feel better, we will welcome you.

    Illegal Aliens Go Home (no excuses)
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2006
  3. ELOrocks17

    ELOrocks17 Guest

    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Its not illegal immigration, per se. It is all the problems that are caused because of it. I.E. Welfare, not paying taxes, not learning English.
     
  4. Chevy

    Chevy Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    680
    Likes Received:
    16
    Ratings:
    +25 / 0 / -0

    #75 Jersey

    Immigrants - Protected by our laws

    Illegal Immigrants - They have one right - the right to a free bus ride to the border.

    No free medical care, no driver's licenses, no sympathy.

    Oh, and no immigrants, in any way, shape or form, from any arabic or otherwise predominantly Islamic nation. Period. No exchange students, no visiting busines leaders. They don't deserve the privilege.
     
  5. OhExaulted1

    OhExaulted1 In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2005
    Messages:
    2,973
    Likes Received:
    256
    Ratings:
    +766 / 19 / -30

    #15 Jersey

    Does this mean we have to kick Senator John Sununu out, fire General Tommy Franks and never utter the name Casey Kasem again?
     
  6. Chevy

    Chevy Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    680
    Likes Received:
    16
    Ratings:
    +25 / 0 / -0

    #75 Jersey

    Funny ... aren't they citizens?

    You can go back and find a way to label anyone an illegal. The rest of us are more concerned with today, however.
     
  7. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2005
    Messages:
    24,106
    Likes Received:
    817
    Ratings:
    +2,377 / 22 / -14

    Disable Jersey

    What is disgusting is that social security pays the freight for over 65 immigrants and their parents yet my wife, a citizen, will barely qualify for the minimum because she exited the workforce to raise a family. Unfortunately, she is not one of the 'special people' that pols love to pander to.
     
  8. BlueTalon

    BlueTalon On the Game Day Roster

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    351
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    I think I have to agree with you, Patters. The current bi-partisan pandering and bloviating when it comes to this subject just sickens me. This is a country built on immigration, and we should forever welcome new migrants. But we need to seal up the southern boarder completely, except for legitimate crossing points. It's futile to talk about who gets what benefits and how they should be managed when the neverending influx of people never ends. (Northern border too.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2006
  9. gomezcat

    gomezcat It's SIR Moderator to you Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    3,546
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    Can I just take this opportunity to welcome you to the board, Blue Talon? I have read your posts and think you have a lot to contribute. I am more liberal than you, but I respect the way you make your points in a reasoned manner and don't resort to name calling. I was also gutted (extremely disappointed) that the Steelers won. I take it that the Hawks will be looking at Receivers and pass CATCHING TEs this offseason? I am the token Brit on here (my girlfriend, Miss Gomezcat, posts occasionally as well), so apologies if my humour is obscure and my spelling is better than you are normally used to seeing. :D

    The issue of immigration to any country in the West is one of realism. We in the UK, as with you in the US, have ageing populations whose pensions need to be paid for. There is also the issue of the willingness, or lack of it, of indigenous people to do the lowly paid jobs. We also have a chronic skills shortage. I would put that down to an education system that has failed people by patronising them and not pushing them to their full potential. I work in the poorest part of the country (Hackney in London) and see it all the time. I also feel that society allows people to make too many bad choices. Too many people are growing up without being taught that we have a responsibility to society as a whole, as well as ourselves. It isn't all about "my rights". Slightly OT, but I remember one of the suspects of the failed 20th July London bombings being told to come out of his apartment in his underwear. He said to the Police Officer pointing an MP5 at him, "I have rights". That made me furious. His first thought was for himself, not the people he had attempted to kill. He also forgot that this country had given him asylum, free education, free housing, medical care and so on. He is lucky not to have emigrated to a country where armed police would simply shoot you rather than bother to arrest you.
    I don't think it is possible to shut the doors to illegal immigration. Too many businesses rely on paying illegal immigrant workers to do low-paid jobs. As much as I would like this to stop, our prices would rise to reflect the cost in higher wages.
    It should be pointed out that illegal immigrants are not a burden on the state. If you are here illegally, you can't get social security benefits and can't get social housing.
    There IS an issue of integration. Far too many groups live in their own communities and don't mix. That hurts them as much as us. They don't get the access to good schools, jobs, housing and so on. That creates the resentment that leads to extremism etc etc. It is also the case that immigrants should understand and respect a country's values. Coming here and preaching extremism is absolutely unacceptable.
    The other issue that needs to be addressed is the sickness culture. Far too many undeserving people claim sickness benefits when they should be working. They are white and, in our case, British. Ironically, one such person I know is one of the most racist people I have met. She is the first to complain about immigrants. As I have said before, rights and responsibilities work both ways.
     
  10. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    42,666
    Likes Received:
    276
    Ratings:
    +699 / 20 / -30

    The problem with immigration is that there is a situational response, dependent on what is going on. Many pols talk tough and say close the borders, however immigrants are the main rebuilders of NOLA. Many men have come from Central America to work there, and in the absence of good tracking many will stay. While we collectively turn our head in this situation, the drum will bang on the Mexican Border. The issue is consistent policy that has consensus amongst all of the Fed agencies and state gov't.

    Look at RI we had a Syrian immigrant who came here about 20 years ago, did all he was supposed to do, opened a pizza place and now sits in a federal detention awaiting deportation. This goes on while we ignore thousands of illegals who clean mansions or run in gangs..
     
  11. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    41,158
    Likes Received:
    250
    Ratings:
    +967 / 2 / -9

    Illegal Aliens=(George Bush Is A Liberal)
     
  12. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    18,715
    Likes Received:
    260
    Ratings:
    +471 / 18 / -17

    Excellent post, gomezcat. Speaking of sick days, when I worked in the Sweden in the early '90s, I was a manager, and after working there a couple of years, I was not surprised to read that the average Swede took 29 sick days per year (that's on top of 5 weeks of vacation plus about 12 paid holidays). The attitude was such that one day when I went to work, I mentioned to a colleague that I had a slight headache. She said, "Then what you doing here? You should go home." And she meant it sincerely. In the U.S., people certainly take advantage of sick days, and try to use a few to squeeze out some extra vacation days. A lot of jobs give full-time employees 2 weeks or less of vacation.
     
  13. BlueTalon

    BlueTalon On the Game Day Roster

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    351
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Hey Gomezcat, thanks! I typically try to engage in debate rather than ad hominum flame-spraying. Sometimes I get away from myself, but even when I do a poke or jab, I try to be a bit more subtle about it than average. No problems with the spelling or humor (humour) -- I grew up on Monty Python, and I occasionally default to the English spelling on something.


    Ah, my beloved Seahawks... well, what's done is done. The Hawks faced dropped passes/missed field goals, injuries on defense, a few Steeler big plays, and horrid officiating. They would have had a legitimate chance at winning the game if they only had to overcome three of those four obstacles, but they couldn't overcome all four. Stevens had been great all year at catching passes, why he chose that day to drop four or five is a mystery. Nevertheless, the Seahawks not making plays and getting on with the game is no different from the Steelers not making plays and getting on with the game. And the Steelers didn't make a LOT of plays. So the Seahawks could have overcome those dropped passes, had not the officials decided that any time there was a Seattle big play, there should also be a flag. (Could you imagine the outcome of the game, and the screaming from Pittsburgh fans, if their two big plays had each received a flag? Their offense wasn't producing anything during the game! It took them 20 minutes just to get a first down!) But... what's done is done. At this point, I just hope that the NFL takes some steps to increase the quality of its officiating. If they do that, I can live with results a lot easier.

    With regards to immigration, let me re-amphisize that I am all for legal immigration. But I disagree with you on this -- I think it is possible to shut the doors on illigal immigration. (I suppose by now you've seen my dictator-for-a-day routine. If I suddenly had the power to make big decision and implement them, these are the things I would do...)

    I'd build a modern Great Wall along the entire stretch of the southern border (and eventually along the northern border as well). Equip it with electronic surveillance, infra red, night vision, seismic detection, etc., and have it all linked on a network with local National Guard and national military commands. Put manned stations at regular intervals, make it so you can drive along the top of it, at high speed if necessary... you get the idea. That would shut the flow of illegals down to a trickle, and our Border Patrol and other law enforcement would be able to adapt to shut off alternate means of trying to get through.

    Then, and only then, can we effectively address the question of people who are here illegally. We could implement a provisional amnesty program for illegals who are willing to come forward and identify themselves, and subject themselves to a background check, fingerprinting and DNA testing. Those found to have committed a crime based on fingerprints or DNA would have the choice of paying for the crime or being deported. Those not coming forward would automatically be deported when found, unless they had committed a violent crime, in which case the victims, or the families of the victims, would have a say in whether they were deported or tried.

    I must disagree with you also about illegals being a burden on the state. They most certainly are a burden. They use our schools systems, they use our health care system, and they use our prison system. They use our legal system. Heck, my aunt who lives in southern California told me about immigrant-rights groups whose purpose it is to inform illegals about all the state and federal benefits they can take advantage of!

    I agree with you that the education system has largely failed. But that is a topic for another thread. (Starting one now.) And we certainly have aging populations and a pension issue, which is covered in the thread on Social Security.

    You are right about the lack of integration. I'd make English the official language, and make all legal and government documents (voting pamphlets and ballots, drivers licenses, etc.) in English only. People can come here and live in their own little bubble if they want, but the govenment should not facilitate that. Learning English would be a necessary part of coming here, and it would only empower them, not punish them as some people seem to think.


    Anyway... nice to meet you, Gomezcat!
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2006
  14. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,626
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -1

    #75 Jersey

    High tech surveillance (sp?) on both borders can be accomplished with the adaquate funding and the political desire to do so.

    Background checks are a good idea for newcomers, but I strongly disagree on fingerprinting and DNA tests for anyone not convicted of a violent crime. It's unconstitutional and a potentially dangerous tool the government can use against it's citizens when it becomes a full police state.

    Immigrants, legal and illegal, may be a burden on the state, but it's the state that actively and passively encourages their presence. The majority of Americans won't do hard or dangerous work. I have the hardest time finding entry level 20 yr olds willing to work for rates anywhere as low as their foreign counterparts. They want ti make $16/hr with no experience or drive and ***** about work the whole time. Brazilians in particular, are willing to enter at very low pay, and often prove themselves to be at work on time, every day, looking for all hours they can get, and usually make much higher wages in very short time. Most of their money goes home to family and they soon end up with enough money to return home and retire. They sacrifice a lot to help themselves and their families in the long run and see things in a big picture format. Americans don't see things that way anymore in my experience.

    The corporate government knows this so has done nothing to stem the flow of illegals, nor will they. You will never see your ideas implemented because of it.
     
  15. BlueTalon

    BlueTalon On the Game Day Roster

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    351
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Well, it certainly would take political resolve by political leaders who put national security before everything else, so I don't see it happening either.

    Your objection to having illegals submit fingerprints and DNA for background checks and comparison with criminal databases is slightly off base, IMO. Citizens and legal residents intrinsicly have constitutional protections, whereas illegals don't (or shouldn't). Making that part of the process of going from illegal to legal is not something I have any heartburn with, and it's a measure that would protect us from having bad people slip into legal status undetected.
     
  16. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,626
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -1

    #75 Jersey

    I hate to harp on this Constitution "thing", but all the protections of the law apply to everybody under our jurisdiction. Nowhere in the document is it stated that the rights and protections are limited to American citizens. The intention was to show other countries that their nationals would be safe here and not subjected to a different standard. Illegal immigration is not a violent crime, and fingerprinting Illegals is no more necessary than fingerprinting, IMO. someone guilty of speeding. There's bad people everywhere, doesn't mean we should print everyone.
     
  17. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2005
    Messages:
    24,106
    Likes Received:
    817
    Ratings:
    +2,377 / 22 / -14

    Disable Jersey

    Our economy depends on the availability of immigrant labor. Most are very hard working people. I have lots of experiance with Brazilians as I lived adjacent to Framingham MA, a mecca for Brazilians. Business on Cape Cod where I own a summer home, depend on these people to staff summer jobs. It used to be Micks straight off the boat in decades past.

    Immigrants would be better received with the populace if our inept govt would simply establish tighter controls on guest workers. Allow them in knowing who they are, and quickly send the small % of them home that cause problems. Instead, cops just let illegal immigrants walk from traffic accidents where they have no insurance because they know they'll waste their time appearing in court as the court/govt will do nothing. Similarly, folks who come here should not have automatic over 65 social security benes for their elderly. Americans have to earn them; immigrant families should too. If we addressed these inequities, we could readily allow more controlled immigration and all benefit from the result.
     
  18. BlueTalon

    BlueTalon On the Game Day Roster

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    351
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Criminals have rights, but that doesn't mean they are treated the same as law abiding people. Fingerprinting them is a standard practice, as will be DNA testing if it isn't already. And since illegal immigrants are by definition criminals, I still don't have a problem with it.

    Your example of the speeder didn't help you much -- everyone who gets pulled over for speeding gets their driver's license run, and they get scrutinized for other violations (alcohol on breath, drug paraphanalia visible in car, etc.), things which are not considered constitutionally allowable for them to do to Joe Shmoe just minding his own business walking down the street. Granted, they don't get their fingerprints done -- unless the driver's license screening or the policeman's observation turns up something, in which case the speeder is processed further.

    I don't see this (fingerprinting illegals in the process of making them legal) as being any different.
     
  19. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2005
    Messages:
    24,106
    Likes Received:
    817
    Ratings:
    +2,377 / 22 / -14

    Disable Jersey

    I think the key point is ILLEGALS. Not ordinary documented immigrants but once you've already broken the law (illegal entry), the Constitution does not prohibit actions such as fingerprinting.
     
  20. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    41,158
    Likes Received:
    250
    Ratings:
    +967 / 2 / -9

    Thats common sense, it is learned at a very young age on the street, many liberals have a hard time figuring that one out. They can spout big words but they wouldn't be able to find a Chinaman in Chinatown.
     

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>