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If you were on a jury....

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by mgcolby, Jun 20, 2006.

  1. mgcolby

    mgcolby Woohoo, I'm a VIP!!! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    http://www.cjob.com/news/index.aspx?src=loc&mc=local&rem=40859

    Would you convict a man for shooting at a fleeing robber(s) who just kicked in your door?


  2. mgcolby

    mgcolby Woohoo, I'm a VIP!!! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I realize this doesn't dig deep into the details but all things being equal and if the person was a law abiding citizen, I know that it states he faces other weapons charges.
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2006
  3. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Definitely not.
  4. bmf31c

    bmf31c Rookie

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    Going by the limited details, in a normal Rule of Engagement, they (the door kickers) really were no longer posing a threat to the firer. If I was on the jury I would have a hard time not feeling for the guy, but I think he is wrong. If he shot them coming in the door, I would be okay with that, but already in the car and driving away? I don't see how that is defenseable.
  5. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree to the right to defend your own home, the only sticking point might be that as they were driving away they were shot in the back.. that might prove interesting. I firmly believe that if someone enters your home and threatens you and your family, self defense with a weapon is in order.
  6. bmf31c

    bmf31c Rookie

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    I agree, more eloquent than the way I put it.
  7. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Thanks for the +++...
  8. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yes, I would convict him, but I don't think he deserves much of a sentence. The homeowner should have called the police instead. Imagine if they were violent criminals -- and got away, they might come back for revenge.

    When I was a kid, my older brother arrived home to our empty house and heard someone inside. By chance, a policemanwas driving by, and my brother flagged the cop down. The cop went into the house, and saw someone walking downstairs with his hand posed as if holding a gun. The cop drew his weapon. It turned out to be a dumb practical joke by a friend of my brother's. Thankfully it did not end in tragedy.

    More than once in my life I have inserted my key into the wrong apartment door or the wrong car door. Would you think it okay for someone to have killed me for that?

    The danger in shooting someone who's fleeing is that it could be a mistake. The guy should have gotten a description and gone to the police. To me, that short article makes me think the homeowner was criminal.
  9. mgcolby

    mgcolby Woohoo, I'm a VIP!!! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Aside from rape, I can't think of something more personal than breaking into someone's home especially with them in it. IMO once a would be robber enters a house the homeowner should be immune from prosecution for his reaction in the face of that threat, even if it is shooting the robber as he tries to flee. It becomes a simple process for me, if the bad guy doesn't break in he doesn't put himself in a position to be shot at by that homeowner.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 29, 2005
  10. mgcolby

    mgcolby Woohoo, I'm a VIP!!! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    :confused: :confused: What?
    What if they were violent criminals and were there to kill him but because he had a gun they ran? It goes back to self responsibility and honestly I am in awe of your failure to place blame appropriately.
  11. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    mgcolby, I've always been of the opinion that criminals are better at killing than people who aren't criminals. If your views were widely followed, then criminals would be more likely to kill when commiting crimes, and old people, people who don't own guns, and people who think before shooting would be at greater risk.
  12. mgcolby

    mgcolby Woohoo, I'm a VIP!!! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't agree with that at all and I think you are reaching on those assumptions.

    But for you to say that they should have done this or done that is just crazy. These people have to react in an instant and to sympathize with criminals is appauling. If I took your post wrong than tell me, but from what I read you want to persecute the homeowner and feel that the people who kicked in the door are somehow excused from responsibility for the entire situation.

    I was using this article as a reference for my question, but my second post shows more of my intentions. I was thinking about a law abiding citizen who is sleeping and has his front door kicked in. I can tell you that they better kill me before I reach my closet.
  13. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    mgcolby, obviously, if someone breaks in, you have no choice but to defend yourself, and shooting the person is not unreasonable, but if someone breaks in and then runs away, shooting them in the back is wrong and dangerous. I think a homeowner has some moral, perhaps not legal, obligation to try to ascertain the facts before killing someone. If someone broke into your house, and you saw an unarmed 10 year old, would you kill him? I hope not, even though you may have the legal right. Shooting someone in the back is almost never right.
  14. mgcolby

    mgcolby Woohoo, I'm a VIP!!! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Why would you take it to that extreme? A 10 year old, no I wouldn't shoot. But a grown man I would drop without a second thought. What facts, the guy broke into your home, that is all the facts I need. What am I supposed to do stop and ask him for an interview to get to the bottom of why he broke in?
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2006
  15. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We seem to be talking about a couple different things?

    - If someone broke into your house, would you that person in the back as he ran from your house and away from your property (which was the case in the article)?
    - If someone broke into your house, would you leap from the doorway and fire a gun willy-nilly, or would you make whatever effort you could safely make to judge the situation? I think you would do the latter, because, maybe it's your son climbing in through a window because he forgot his keys and doesn't want you to see him stoned. Or maybe it's the police at the wrong house. Or maybe it's a harmless immature kid. I'm not saying you would interview the guy, but wouldn't you at least try to judge the situation before shooting?
  16. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    If you can kill him, shoot. If killing is an unlikely outcome, then don't shoot. Why else would you fire a gun at someone? To shoot someone and not kill them only invites trouble. And dead men don't get to hire lawyers.

    The key here is that the intruders kicked down the door. It was obviously a planned violent home invasion. I wouldn't be surprised if they were acquaintances.

    Like you, Patters, I've mistakenly entered the wrong (unlocked) apartment. One time getting home about 3 AM from work, I only walked up one flight of stairs instead of two, entered the unlocked apartment directly underneath mine, walked into a dark room to a bed that was along the same wall as mine was, got undressed, and climbed halfway into bed with a woman that was not my girlfriend, at which point she awoke. If she had a gun handy, she probably would have been justified in shooting me. However, I did not break into the apartment, and was just as startled as she was. I explained, apologized, and left. I don't even know what she looked like. She probably still has nightmares about it. But the threat of malice wasn't there. It certainly is in the scenario we're talking about.

    However, the shooter is in clear violation of the law.
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2006
  17. mgcolby

    mgcolby Woohoo, I'm a VIP!!! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't know I have never been in that situation, but I could see myself possibly doing that out of sheer anger.

    I see your point and yes I would judge the situation but I would only have a few seconds (if that) to determine what the situation is. We could sit here and dream up scenarios all day but I think the majority of break in's in this country aren't by accident. How many times do you hear someone on a tv interview say well I didn't go there to rob the store or house with the intention of killing anyone (but they brought along a gun), but yet ended up killing someone. I don't want to be that "someone" because I hesitated.
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2006
  18. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    When I was 11 years old, I dared a friend to kick a door on an old house. He did. Then I dared him again, and he did it again. Finally, on the third dare, the door broke open. He and I went into the house, and simultaneously realized what we had done, and went racing out of there. My sister and a friend once climbed through a neighbor's window and took cookies and milk (which was okay with the neighbor). I had a roommate in college who for no good reason decided to come into the apartment through the second floor window rather than the front door. Things like that happen all the time. But, I do agree, you may not have the luxury to judge the situation, but since most thieves aren't violent, I'd rather risk personal injury than live with having killed a person by mistake.
  19. Boston Boxer

    Boston Boxer U.S. Air Force Retired PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    you are correct. I just happened to study this very thing in my Criminal Law class. If the homeowner shoots at them as they are kicking in the door, then that is his right because he felt he was in imminent danger. The danger of attack is no longer imminent when they are running away. I would feel for the homeowner, but would have to find him in violation.
  20. mgcolby

    mgcolby Woohoo, I'm a VIP!!! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It is amazing that the law would feel that way, I could see if the guy chased them down the street but shooting at someone who is running to their car or is even still on your property shouldn't be illegal (after they broke in your house), what if they are running back to their car to get a weapon? How would the homeowner be able to determine that? I am amazed sometimes at how the law seemingly does a better job at protecting the criminals than the victims.

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