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If you Truly Wanted Change - Why Vote Obama or Romney?

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by IcyPatriot, Oct 30, 2012.

  1. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    Just asking ... many say they want change.

    Many seem to think they are voting for change.

    They are both in bed with the banks and Wall Street.

    Both are in bed with major money movers and string pullers.

    Obama was supposed to be change - he was Bush Light.

    Bill Clinton actually was change - too bad Monica derailed him.

    But back to the question ...

    Is voting for Obama or Romney really going to change or improve anything in our system?

    :americaflag:
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
  2. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    No. But that's neither here nor there (whatever that means).

    Now get back to bickering and making up nonsense about some candidate or another and DO WHAT YOU"RE TOLD!

    If you don't vote Red or Blue, all that left is Yellow, and you don't want to be called that. Well, there's Green too, but that's for sissies.
  3. Hamar

    Hamar Rookie

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    I really can not see why anyone would vote for Obama. He tells us over and over that he is ineffectual. Everything is the fault of the previous administration. Everything he wants to do to make things better is blocked by the republicans.

    What is going to change? Will he go back in time and change the Bush admin? Will republicans all vanish?

    No, none of that will happen so we are looking at 4 more years of excuses. Lets assume those excuses are fact... Why then re-elect someone that can do nothing to change where we are headed?
  4. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Obama did a lot more than Clinton. Clinton has no signature accomplishments other than the Family Leave Act. Obama passing health care and Wall Street Reforms were the first serious reversals to Reaganism. Obama's stimulus bills was one of the great achievements of liberal economics, saving tens of thousands of blue collar jobs and initiating a drive towards alternative energy that rivals Kennedy's space program. Obama's no Bush light in any respect.
  5. Hamar

    Hamar Rookie

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    You are right there... Obama has doubled down on the worst Bush policies.
  6. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey


    You left out the best Clinton ... paying down the debt.

    Obama's stimulus bills were funded by money created by paper and ink.

    Health Care is still up in the air ... only reason they got it is because AARP screwed their membership.

    The alternative energy has been a big zero so far ... China is killing us with no end in sight.

    Wall Street reforms were good but they are far short of what is needed ... but it was good.

    As for the stimulus bill ... have they spent 1/2 the money yet or are they still sitting on it?
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
  7. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    He left it out because it didn't happen. Thanks to the Enron-esque accounting of the Federal Government the Gross Debt never went down while we were running all those "surpluses".

    See: Table 470 here:

    http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0470.pdf

    Code:
           Gross
    Fiscal federal
    Year   debt 
    1992   4,001.8
    1993   4,351.0
    1994   4,643.3
    1995   4,920.6
    1996   5,181.5
    1997   5,369.2
    1998   5,478.2
    1999   5,605.5
    2000   5,628.7
    
  8. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    I fell for a myth???? :eek::eek::eek:
  9. Titus Pullo

    Titus Pullo Banned

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    And I'm just asking:

    Do you expect an alternative to ever stand a chance when they're not invited to the TV debates?

    Stein would have left them both looking foolish, just by being honest with America about what the real problems are.
  10. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    I was curious to see the responses.

    Stein would wipe them both ... she is so much more than just being Green.
    she would provide grants and low interest loans for local green companies and she wants to renegotiate NAFTA!!!

    Wants to end corporate subsidies and strengthen Medicare and social Security. She wants to end banks creating money :eek:, restore Glass-Steagall (sorry), wants to reform healthcare through Medicare for all (I love that idea), repeal the Patriot Act (Love that), I entirely love her foreign policy, she is in line with my thinking on immigration (let them stay here) ... I could go on and on.

    I think they could be a breathe of fresh air myself and they would actually make Congress and the Senate work for a change. They would be forced through public opinion to tackle the tough issues instead of tabling them.

    But we see so much Obama and Romney talk here and I think they will change little to nothing. Obama maybe a bit better on foreign policy and Romney perhaps a bit better on the economy - but no big swing either way regardless of who wins. Thus I was hoping for responses.
  11. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yes, it happened. Every year's deficit goes by the accounting of what you took in and your outlays. We've done it the same way at least since the Reagan years, probably before... with the exception of George II, who just declared by fiat that wars didn't count when he had 'em.

    The deficit (or surplus) is the one-year number. The debt is another. Yes, the debt should go down in a year when you have a surplus - but slight surpluses over one year are easily overtaken by any slight change to interest rates affecting the prior 200+ years. That's my guess.

    But the basic point here is that using the math by which we judge whether there was a surplus or a deficit in a given year, Clinton ran a couple of surpluses.

    In any event, debt to GDP plummeted under Clinton, and skyrocketed under Bush. Under Obama it's continued to climb -- in no small part because of the dead weight of years of prior debt, not all of it admitted at the time, the need to clean up Bush's mess (continuation of Bush's wall-street bailout, the comparatively cheap Detroit rescue, continual -- and needed -- stimulus.)

    PFnV
  12. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yes, if you're emphasis is on paying down the debt, I can clearly see why you support Clinton and Jill Stein. ;)

    Health care isn't up in the air, unless Republicans get complete control of Congress and even then my guess is that it would survive.

    The alternative energy efforts have certainly not been a zero, and venture capitalists have started moving in in a number of areas, such as weatherization, batteries, and wind energy. But, it will take more time before it truly takes off, especially given the dominant political position of the oil companies. China is killing us because we're playing catch up. That's why Solyndra sank, but I don't think we should cede this industry to the Chinese, as Romney apparently would.

    Fact check: Are half of 'green' energy firms helped by stimulus out of business? - CNN.com
  13. Drewski

    Drewski Rookie

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    No Jersey Selected

    Here Here Titus!

    I couldn't agree more.

    The debate with Larry King and all the third party candidates I thought was great. Real answers, real ideas. (Im a Gary Johnson guy, but I think your point about Stein can be expanded to most of the 3rd party candidates).

    As for the original question of the thread - Obama ran on change in 2008 (and I voted for him accordingly). I bought the hype that he would go to DC and change the way things are done. He hasn't and I don't think will or wants to change anything. And to expand on that a bit I honestly I dont know if the machine would let anyone truly change DC.

    Mitt I don't think would change it either.

    So my POV is if you want actual change, vote 3rd party. The big 2 don't want change because business is good for them; even at the cost of good for us.

    D
  14. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact On the Roster

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    So Obama got what he got due to years prior, but not Clinton.

    Could you not cherry pick an argument any worse?




  15. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact On the Roster

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    3rd party will never make its entry as a head of state.

    The one thing the tea party is right about is where he push needs to start



  16. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    The problem is we really don't have a 3rd choice. All the "outside" candidates are unknowns with little support.

    The REAL problem in the US is that we have too many idiot, douche-bag, pure dumb party-line voters whose only goal is to have their idiot, douche-bag, pure dumb party-guy sitting in the WH.:D

    America doesn't have any true Patriots left in the political arena....and as we all know, Patriots Reign! Maybe I should change my screen name to Dead-Patriots.....

    Keeping in mind of course that all of the above is the "kinder, gentler" PatriotsReign. Imagine what I may have written without the rule changes! ;)
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2012
  17. Drewski

    Drewski Rookie

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    No Jersey Selected

    I tend to agree with you IC. But I'm just stating my opinion/belief that if you want true change, you will never get it from an R or D anymore.

    They are both puppets of the same master.

    OT: If anyone hasn't seen it, the mini series "Men Who Built America" on History is fantastic.

    Last night (replay) discussed how Rockefeller, Morgan and Carnegie, all rivals at the time, came together with their moneys/influence to set the political ship to their benefit - basically to ensure Bryan didn't win.

    Obviously to me, we are still paying for "that" now. Politics isn't about "one vote, one voice" anymore (maybe it never was). Now it is "who is going to give me money to pay my second mortgage? Then that is who I will represent".
  18. Kid~Brady

    Kid~Brady Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    This.

    I just told a friend the same thing, almost verbatum. Change won't happen no matter what party wins. If Romney wins, he will most likely be buried from the last 12 years of rolling debt and people will crush him just the same.
  19. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    So what you and Drewski believe backs up my earlier post above....

    We can't blame anyone but ourselves for the idiotic partisanship we've adopted as our national mantra.

    It's not the fault of the "Masters"...it's our fault for being so stupid & gullible
  20. Drewski

    Drewski Rookie

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    No Jersey Selected

    I will stand by that line to anyone who I discuss Politics with (here or in "real life").

    The two parties are identical; with the exception of the fringe issues. If Ds cared about "the common man" so much.....why did they extend those awful Bush Tax cuts?

    If the Rs care about small government so much....why do they want more government for women's issues, marriage and drugs?

    American Politics.....two sides of the same coin!

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