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If you can't beat them, force them to join you

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by RI Patriots fan, Dec 11, 2012.

  1. RI Patriots fan

    RI Patriots fan Rookie

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    Unions, once again, try to force people to join their ranks and give them money. Imagine if you were forced to join a church or mosque and give them money :eek:

    But that's what communism is all about.....lack of choice, bend your will to the will of "the people". And of course, you can't forget.....collect those union dues :rocker:

    The Progressive faith in action...denying people personal liberty, forcing them to tow the party line.


    The Michigan right-to-work battle, explained
  2. PatsFanInVa

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    In a non-right-to-work state, you can work in a closed shop or an open shop. The distinction is that in a closed shop, a union has made a contractual agreement with an employer, where both say you have to be in a union to work in a given shop.

    Why do you hate the rule of law? Should the U.S. and the state governments uphold contracts or not?

    Why do you want the state to get in the way of contracts between employers and employees? Should the governor personally write each contract himself?

    PFnV
  3. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    By the way, it's "toe" the party line, not "tow." Counterintuitive, I know. This has been a public service announcement :)

    PFnV
  4. RI Patriots fan

    RI Patriots fan Rookie

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    I see....so you'd be fine with a union-free business (like Walmart for instance) contracting with each new employee that they can't be part of a union...is that correct?
  5. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    They already kinda do that, don't they? They are notorious for firing any of their employees who get involved with anything union related.
  6. RI Patriots fan

    RI Patriots fan Rookie

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    But you'd be ok with any business contracting with each new employee that they can't join a union while they work for that business?
  7. DarrylS

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    This will all be overturned in the very near future.. the pendulum will swing back.

    These right wingers will be voted out and a new governor will be elected...

    So have fun in the meantime..

    [​IMG]

    http://www.dailykos.com/

    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  8. Hebeill

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    You and your cronies might like working seven days a week and holidays for chum change but there are those of us that don't.
  9. Hebeill

    Hebeill Rookie

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    After years of listening to this i can't for the life of me understand why your average citizen will stick up for those (corporations) that would like to brings things back to the days before unions existed. Back then you worked seven days a week for what ever the corporations felt like paying, no vacation time, no weekends off, no benefits of any kind, kids working in factories at the age of 10 or 11 company stores etc. Its mind boggeling, I'd bet that none of the rt wing posters on here is a multi millionaire and yet they are always for the money men who view them as expendable pieces. Voting against they're own self interests. Dumb really unbelievably dumb.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  10. RI Patriots fan

    RI Patriots fan Rookie

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    Seeing that the Republicans hold a 26-12 super majority in the State Senate (and have controlled it since 1983), control the House, control the Governor's seat, and the next election will be a mid term election, the chances are zero that the Dems would gain control of all three branches which would be necessary to overturn this legislation. :D
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  11. RI Patriots fan

    RI Patriots fan Rookie

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    The average citizens owns a 401k and stocks now. They also understand that the economy is worldwide in scope and unions in unprotected industries just can't compete in the long term.

    BTW, welcome to the 21st century.
  12. RI Patriots fan

    RI Patriots fan Rookie

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    Let me guess.....you're a union goon?
  13. Real World

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    I'm not sure why he, or anyone else in here cares. Unless you all live in Michigan? :lol2:
  14. Real World

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    I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why a company cannot walk away from a union, once the contract between the two sides has expired.
  15. DarrylS

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    You never know sometimes it takes things like this to get people off their butts and movements begin...

    This is also a lame duck measure..

    The House is changing and the divide is much smaller, now it is 59-41 after the democrats picked up 5 seats in the most recent election..
  16. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Rookie

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    do they? where?
  17. PatsFanInVa

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    Why do you want the Government to dictate contracts between worker organizations and employers?
  18. Real World

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    Bump


    Beuhler? Anyone?
  19. PatsFanInVa

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    You mean why can't an employer fire you for being in a union, once the contract has expired -- as in, retaliate against you for your union membership?

    That would be Freedom of Association, Freedom of Assembly, and Freedom of Speech.

    Why do you hate the United States Constitution?
  20. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    By the way, that's what you're asking. A Union, as the name implies, is a group of workers who work together in negotiating with management. So in the scenario that you guys seem to think is "checkmate" in the logic of collective bargaining, you still have those workers on payroll.

    You can bargain with them, or, as some have, you can go elsewhere and get a less skilled workforce. What you can't do is run the same plant and fire your union guys for the sin of being union members.

    PFnV
  21. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Here:

    Read more: Walmart Accused of Illegally Firing Union Players | Care2 Causes

    Here:

    Walmart Moves To Fire Union Activist Employees | Crooks and Liars

    And here:


    Up Against Wal-Mart | Mother Jones

    In Canada they closed the whole store when employees attempted to unionize.

    Wal-Mart Crushes Union by Closing Store
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  22. RI Patriots fan

    RI Patriots fan Rookie

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    Yes, that 59-51 margin (it's 51 not 41) is waaaaay different :rolleyes:

    It ain't happening...no chance.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  23. RI Patriots fan

    RI Patriots fan Rookie

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  24. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Cool story, RI. The NLRB withdrew their complaint after the Machinists and Boeing came to a contract agreement.

    NLRB Withdraws Boeing Complaint - WSJ.com

    The grounds were that opening the SC plant was specifically a reprisal for previous strikes. Whether you think that would float in court or not is sort of immaterial, since it's a dead issue.

    Got anything that's not overtaken by events?

    Oh yeah and...

    Why do you want the government to dictate the terms of contracts between workers and employers?

    If the employer signs a contract that their shop will be a union shop, what business is it of the government's?

    The Michigan law dictates the terms of employment. Employers and employees should do that. If employees vote for a union -- as they have in all union shops -- what business is it of the Michigan government, or any "right-to-work" (for peanuts) state government -- to interfere?

    Why do you believe in the state more than employers and employees?

    PFnV

    PFnV
  25. Real World

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    Bumped again....anyone?
  26. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Probably for the same reason the workers can't walk away from their job en-masse the day a contract expires...they both agreed not to.

    What an employer can do - and often does do - is do a lock out and refuse to allow the union employees to work without a contract and only offer them a really bad one, knowing they won't accept it. He can't fire them, but he can hire non-union replacement workers to replace them for as long as he wants and hold out until the union accepts his terms.
  27. RI Patriots fan

    RI Patriots fan Rookie

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    I was pointing out that the government is already involved in the employee/employer relationship especially when it comes to unions.

    So if you're saying that government shouldn't involve itself in employer/employee relationships and employers can require employees to sign contracts to prohibit them from forming unions.....I'm in. No interference whatsoever.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  28. DarrylS

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    The governor was in the middle of meetings with Unions as recently as last week, and gave no indication that this was even on the table or would support such a measure.. then it was rushed through without public comment or any democratic processes that involved the rank and file.

    They attached this to an appropriations bill so it could not be subject to a Michigan Referendum.. it is dirty pool all around, and defies basic democratic processes.

    The Koch's, Chamber of Commerce and the rest of the oligarchs are all quite proud of these actions..

    This is why he did it in a nutshell... politics behind closed doors, what a jackass.. what goes around, comes around.

    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  29. Hebeill

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    And theyand their supporters call the supporters of the constitution, 'real americans' while at the same time spit on the democratic process.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  30. IllegalContact

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    this is only true in the case of certain public employees. when they take the job, they agree that they can't strike.......and in return, they get tenure (at least in the teachers case)

    I would have no problems removing that wording from teachers contracts....would give schools the enema that they need

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