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If the Red Sox trade Manny...

Discussion in 'Red Sox Fan Forum' started by PonyExpress, Nov 29, 2006.

  1. PonyExpress

    PonyExpress In the Starting Line-Up

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    and then smear him on his way out of town, to cover their own @$$e$, as they did with Nomar and D.Lowe, what will your reaction be? According to bostonsportsmedia.com, Glen Ordway of WEEI, who is friendly with Lucchino, announced that this would be the Red Sox' course of action. It's interesting how Lowe (drunk womanizer), Pedro (primadonna), Manny (selfish, non-hustling jaker), Damon (idiot culture), Nomar (miserable) et.al., who predated the Theo/Lucchino regime, have all been deemed "unfit" to be Red Sox for various "character" issues leaked by the organization to various press toadies like Buckley and MacAdam. I guess anyone who they don't have their fingerprints on, except "good soldier" Varitek, is stained in their eyes. All I can say is, they better win this year. If not it will become clear that their World Series was a happy accident which they stumbled upon, benefiting from star players mostly provided by the previous regime. And if they release dirt on Ramirez through their press minions to the fans, after trading him, it will become clear that the character flaws are their own.
     
  2. BradyManny

    BradyManny Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    I'm already angry about how the Sox/media treat Manny - they've already leaked out stories to smear him in their past attempts to trade him/waive him. Hey, I'm as big a Manny fan as anyone and will admit he makes a fair share of boneheaded moves any given season, but at the same time, his every move is blown so out of proportion and criticized on completly different standards.

    As you point out, they've done it with every star they've let go of, and I expect they will continue to do it with Manny whether they are able to trade him or not. Lucchino uses the Globe as a propaganda weapon, and has for some time.

    No matter what happens, this team is not getting any better if they trade Manny. If they expect Lugo and Drew to replace Manny's production, they are royally fu*ked.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2006
  3. Foley

    Foley Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    If Manny had not asked to be traded from the day he was signed then I don't think that there would be much desire to smear him. Its not the Red Sox who want to get rid of Manny, its Manny that wants to get rid of the Red Sox.

    I completely agree that his antics are blown out of proportion, and I don't think that he quit on the team in September and really couldn't care less if he doesn't hustle to first on a routine groundball. I just have a problem with him saying every offseason or during the trade deadline that he wants to get out of Boston... and I think that that is the main reason that they are trying to trade him.

    And when have the Red Sox or the media said anything bad about Wakefield, or Nixon, or Youkilis, or Lester? They tried very hard to get Nomar to sign a long term deal prior to 2004 and he refused. They didn't try to re-sign Lowe because he was terrible in 2004 and had been declining substantially in his last 3 years here. They didn't re-sign Pedro because of concerns about his shoulder.... the one that now needs major reconstructive surgery. Maybe they thought that they all had significant character flaws, but there were other more important reasons that they were not brought back.
     
  4. BradyManny

    BradyManny Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    They've made some good moves, some bad moves, it is what it is. Surprisingly, as it turns out, the decision to not give Damon that extra money is going to be the biggest mistake they made. I was all for letting Damon go and trading for Crisp (except I didn't like the fact that the cost was Marte) at the time b/c I bought into their propaganda that Damon was on the back 9, injury prone, and ready for a breakdown.

    Now, they want to go out and sign Nancy Drew for more money than Damon? It's just inconsistent - I don't see a coherent plan whatsoever. Players have trouble playing in Boston, we know that. So those that thrive in this town deserve the extra $$ to play here, and in hindsight, I really think the Damon move set us back a ton as you look at the domino effect it has had on other acquistions.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2006
  5. Foley

    Foley Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    A year ago everyone was saying how terrible it was that they let Pedro walk. I don't hear any of that this offseason because their propaganda about his shoulder was 100% correct, so whos to say their propaganda about Damon won't be? He could still be a great hitter in 2009 and the Red Sox will look foolish for not bringing him back, or he could experience a Pedro-like decline and people will give the FO the thumbs up for knowing when to get rid of him. Too soon to tell.

    And as far as Marte... he had a .773OPS in AAA this season, .105 points lower than in 2005. And in 221 major league at bats has managed a career .202BA and .637OPS. Not to say hes a flop (which I don't believe) but hes nowhere near the can't miss prospect he was a year ago.
     
  6. PonyExpress

    PonyExpress In the Starting Line-Up

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    Can anyone explain why the Sox refused to assume Abreu's contract last year, or pay Damon, and now are willing to pay 31 year old, injury prone JD Drew 70 million dollars? I remember Luchino after the trade deadline telling Jerry Callahan that the Sox couldn't afford Abreu's deal, then discussing a new $37 million dollar tax break due to Fenway's "landmark" status, or something along those lines. On another note, I believe Francona was the "unnamed source" who fed the "Manny wanted a scoring decision changed" story to the media after the Yankee 5 game sweep. The reason I believe Francona was the source is because of the unabashed fawning and sympathy he received in the midst of the Red Sox collapse, which usually indicates a back-scratching relationship with the press. That's the way the media works in sports and in politics. I believe Manny probably knew Francona had dimed him out, and felt the manager had betrayed a clubhouse trust, hanging him out to dry. That may or may not have contributed to Manny's reluctance to play with injury for the manager and organization, especially with the team's playoff hopes non-existent.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2006
  7. Foley

    Foley Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    The Red Sox refused to assume Abreu's contract for 2 reasons:
    1. They didn't need him. At the deadline Nixon had a .294BA and .822OPS, while Abreu had a .277BA and .861OPS. It was not until after the trade deadline that Nixon was injured and they needed another RF.

    2.The luxury tax threshold went up this offseason from $136.5M to $148M becasue of the new CBA. Had they have acquired Abreu the payroll would have been over $136.5M and they would have had to pay a substantial about of money in addition to the addition of Abreu. Because of the increased threshold they can spend a lot more.
     
  8. PonyExpress

    PonyExpress In the Starting Line-Up

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    1) At the time of the trade Abreu was leading the national league in walks, had a .427 OBP, had stolen 20 bases and driven in 65 runs.

    2) Nixon WAS NOT injured after the deadline. He tore his bicep on July 30.
    Also, Nixon always gets injured and the organization knew he was unreliable. That's one of the reasons they had no interest in signing him to more than a 1 year deal. To think he would last the whole year was whistling past the graveyard. In comparison, Abreu was a reliable player going down the stretch, never having played fewer than 150 games since 1998.

    3) Abreu received $1.5 million from the Phillies to waive his no-trade clause and accept the deal. The Yankees paid him about $4.3 million of his $13.5 million salary this year, plus $15.5 million next season. He has a club option for $16 million in 2008 with a $2 million buyout. The Yankees did not exercise that option. IOW, the Yankees could have Abreu locked up for 2 more years at 31.5 million, with the ability to cut their losses after 2007. The Red Sox will have a injury prone Drew for 5 years and 70 million. THE POINT IS... Would the Sox have had to pay $38.5 million in luxury taxes for acquiring Abreu? If not, then failing to pull the trigger on Abreu may end up costing the club more than 30 million dollars.

    It was penny wise, pound foolish at its worst.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2006
  9. Foley

    Foley Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    1)Thats nice. It still doesn't change the fact that Nixon was doing very nice at the time too.

    2)And Abreu was traded that same day. Before Nixon injured himself.
    And what if Nixon didn't get injured? He remained healthy and still posted a very respectable .822OPS? Does he get benched? Do they try him in CF?

    3)By most recent accounts Drew will be getting 4/$56M, not 5/$70M.... So technically the difference would be $24.5M. And Abreu's AAV of $12.8M would have added about $5.12M to the cost, making a total difference of around $19.38M. So basically Drew for 4/$56 or Abreu for 2.5/$40.92M. I'd rather have the extra 1.5 years of Drew for $15M and whatever prospects the Sox would have needed to give up.

    And I'm no big fan of signing Drew, but hes only been on the DL once the past 3 seasons, which was the result of being drilled in the wrist with a fastball. "Injury Prone" is a bit much.
     
  10. PonyExpress

    PonyExpress In the Starting Line-Up

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    JD Drew played 104 games in 99, 109 in 2001, 100 in 2003, 72 in 2005. His "healthy" years were 135 in 2000, 135 in 2002,145 in 2004, and 146 last year. "Injury prone" is actually an understatement. Offering such a player a 4 to 5 year deal for $14 million, and suggesting it offers better value than Abreu would have done, is the height of lunacy.


    Does Theo crap sunshine?
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2006
  11. Foley

    Foley Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    In more recent history Drew has been fine healthwise, outside of an injury that would have caused anyone (even Abreu) to miss significant time. Is it impossible to believe that a guy can go from having a lot of injuries to being relatively healthy? Because a lot of guys have done it before.

    I'm not disagreeing that Drew is getting too much. I never have. I just think that Drew at 4/$56 is better than Abreu at 2.3/$40.92M.
     
  12. Tunescribe

    Tunescribe PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #61 Jersey

    Ramirez is the poster child for everything wrong with professional sports. How can you defend that cretin?
     
  13. PonyExpress

    PonyExpress In the Starting Line-Up

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    You're right. Look at Manny's long criminal history; his poor relationship with the fans; the fact he's such a cancer in the locker room; how once he signed his big contract he stopped performing; how he regularly dimes out his teammates and manager in the press; his legendary steroid abuse. Manny Ramirez is indeed the poster child of everything that's wrong with sports.;)
     
  14. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Manny brings issues with him for sure; but he's not the worst. I don't understand the rational behind trading him now. After 9-11 there was a correction in FA signings that made his yearly salary pretty tough to swallow; but now that the likes of JD Drew are starting to close on his pay rate; doesn't that make him more of a value? JD ain't even close to Manny.

    On the other hand, I would like to point out that Manny's influence on Ortiz's numbers is the single, most over-rated thing in the history of sports. I don't think they should trade Manny, and he does have an influence on just how many good pitches David sees; but David won't disappear under a mountain of intentional walks if Manny is traded.
     
  15. BradyManny

    BradyManny Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Single most overrated seems a bit drastic, but I hear what you're saying. For what it's worth, Ortiz's numbers in September with Manny out of the lineup were all slightly above his average. It's hard to take anything that happened in September seriously, I think ultimately, Ortiz's production might take a small hit, but his OBP will rise. As Seinfeld says, it all evens out.

    Either way, I'm not worried at all about how our #3 hitter produces. The real question is what we're going to get from our #4 hitter, and Nancy Drew can't give you anything close to what Manny can get you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2006
  16. PonyExpress

    PonyExpress In the Starting Line-Up

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    Disagree. Over the course of a 6 month season... The pressure on Ortiz of being the only big bat in the lineup, of not being pitched to anymore with the game on the line, of slumping occasionally and having no other hitter pick up the slack...

    But MOSTLY... I don't believe this management will get good value for Ramirez, because I no longer believe in their ability as player evaluators. I am against trading him for that reason only. If Billy Bean were the GM, trading Ramirez would be a great idea.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2006
  17. TomBrady'sGoat

    TomBrady'sGoat 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    First off, Bobby Abreau is an awful defender who has already lost his power. J D Drew is great defensively (he can even fill in as a center fielder if you need him to) and hasn't lost his power yet. Drew > Abreau.

    Trot was not hurt when the Abreau trade went down. If you want to attack the Red Sox FO for not being psychic then I think you ask too much.

    I'm not a fan of trashing player's on the way out. Lucchino is definitely guilty of this. That said, all of the player's you mentioned (except maybe Damon)took abuse from fans and the media BEFORE they left. Pedro was always a prima-donna, Manny has always been Manny, Lowe got abused for folding under pressure and the Derek Lowe Face (though the drunk womanizer bit was unnecessary and uncalled for), Nomar got attacked for sulking (remember the NY series?), and as for Damon I don't remember much trashing of him on the way out. Then again didn't the guy admit to cheating on his wife in his book?


    Yeah, thank God Duquette handed Theo Ortiz, Mueller, Millar, Schilling, Foulke, Belhorn, Roberts, Timlin, etc. Oh and thank God Duquette traded away Nomar.

    Duquette deserves credit for trading for and locking up Pedro and well as getting both Lowe and Varitek for Heathcliff Slocumb(sp?). I guess he deserves credit for signing Damon even though he sucked for Duquette's final season. Hard to credit him for simply doling out cash on a bad contract to Manny.

    Oh there will be plenty of badmouthing Manny on the way out. But there has been plenty while he's been here so I don't see what will have changed.

    I don't expect the Sox to win this year. That's asking too much. I'm excited though for a young rotation that will feature Matsuzaka, Beckett, Paplebon, and Lester. Pitching wins, and those are four guys who they don't have to worry about replacing until at least 2010. You can fell free to whine but to people like me you'll look awfully foolish.
     
  18. PonyExpress

    PonyExpress In the Starting Line-Up

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    The Sox were in discussions for Abreu with the Phils, so there was no need for them to be psychic regarding Nixon. But they wanted the Phils to eat some of the money. It had nothing to do with "not knowing where to play him", or his "lack of power". It was a money decision. How do we know this? LUCCHINO said it on Callahan's show. I know because I heard him. With that in mind, the signing of Drew takes on a different light. The foolish ones are those who actually believe this organization has the skill at personnel evaluation to make a Manny trade worthwhile.

    As far as "not expecting the Red Sox to win this year". Since the Sox have the #2 payroll in baseball, I expect them to compete for the WS every year.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2006
  19. Foley

    Foley Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    So how do you explain Ryan Howard? or Albert Pujols? or Travis Hafner? or Manny Ramirez? Or any other hitter who doesn't have Manny behind him and puts up fantastic numbers?
     
  20. TomBrady'sGoat

    TomBrady'sGoat 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    So are you saying that Trot's health wouldn't affect the decision as to whether or not Abreau's contract was worth it? They talked about it but with Trot healthy it wasn't worth it. Had Trot been injured a week earlier the front office would have no doubt viewed Abreau differently.

    As for expectations I guess we aren't so far apart. I expect them to compete for a world series. I expect them to be one of the top 5 teams in baseball. So much luck is involved though that I think it is unfair to expect any team to win it all.

    look at the world series winner this year. they weren't even a top 10 team in all of baseball. i know the Cardinals were kinda freaky (and the Tigers were freaky bad in the WS) and the exception doesn't prove the rule but the point remains. A lot of things can happen either for or against you that are oftentimes out of your control.

    *edit* oh yeah, and i completely agree that the obsession with lineup protection is unnecessary. no doubt it helps, but people make too big a deal of it. pleanty of hitters have excelled with a crappy hitter behind them. besides, the guys in front of them getting on base are much more important.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2006

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