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If the CBA had not gone through would AV be a Colt?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by MrBigglesWorth, Feb 5, 2007.

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  1. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    imagine if the CBA hadn't gone through and salary cap jumped up.

    1. would the cotls have the money to sign AV?

    2. Would Givens had gotten such a lofty deal from the Titans?

    3. Other teams would have be FORCED to release players.

    4. McGinest would have been released but maybe the Browns wouldn't have thrown such money at him.

    5. Deion might not have gotten entranced by the big dollars and maybe he would still be here for the Superbowl.

    I feel the jump in salary cap hurt the Pats this past year, but the Pats will get their revenge this coming year.

    And I'm saying it right now, the Pats will win the Superbowl in 2008.
  2. unoriginal

    unoriginal Rookie

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    If the CBA had not gone through I'd be following the Hamilton Tiger-Cats and you'd be following the Allouettes.
  3. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/9293409

    "No agreement wouldn't have meant a work stoppage -- at least not for the next two years -- but it would have sent teams scrambling to get under a $94.5 million salary cap. That would have put a number of veterans on the street and it would've also limited the amount of money available for other free agents. And it would've led to an uncapped year in 2007.

    Now the cap is expected to go up by as much as $10 million with an extension of the CBA in place. "



    Tell me where the Colts would have had the money to sign him?
  4. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Who is AV and what did he do to take the SB away from New England - seriously? Itemize his contributions that made the difference in the Colt season, then ask the question again.
  5. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    I'm assuming you're being sarcastic. It's a simple as this. Vanderkjerk missed a field goal against the steelers the season before. AV brought a confidence with him and look at the Ravens game.

    If you don't think AV put them over the top you're crazy.
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2007
  6. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    Show me where Seymour's contributions are illustrated in stats? Or does he have little imapact becuase the stats are limited.
  7. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You think Vanderjerk who managed to get himself replaced by Gramatica in the first year of his new 3 year deal would have kicked 5 FG's in Baltimore including a 50 yarder? I know Polian now says Gotti was his fallback, but he didn't have the draft pick to give up and I doubt the kid would have withstood his wrath early in the season when he struggled inside the 40.

    I think the broader point to be made is had the CBA not gone through we were good to go. Indy was in deep doo doo since they would have had to make some serious cuts absent the ability to restructure the big two under the rules in effect in an expiring CBA. If I recall they were several million over the cap at that juncture and Indy fans were calling for that idiot Polian's head. ;)
  8. PatsFanInVa

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    So you're saying that the intangible of knowing (sort of) that he won't choke (probably) was responsible without a doubt for the Colts' performance this year?

    Bollocks. I think they tanked Vanderjagt because he was a big mouth drunk AND he missed an important field goal. If Vandy was a happy little camper who went to church, took care of his family, and kicked, I don't think they go shopping at all. It's the combination of poor timing for rare inaccuracy, and flaming a-holery, that got Vandy the hook in Indy.

    Box is right - in terms of measurables, AV didn't really cement a darn thing for Indy. His miscues yesterday are only significant in their insignificance; Indy was head and shoulders over the bears, and would have won if they lined up any of a dozen NFL kickers behind the tee. In other playoff games, as well, AV was good but not spectacular.

    Anyway moving right along... the CBA extension was as much a windfall for New England as for Indianapolis; one would expect that windfall to scale equally for each team. Had NE wanted to keep Adam at all costs, it's likely they'd be able to. But he exceeded NE's value for him.

    I do not think that value scales downward in a climate of scarcity, such as if the CBA had not gone through. But I certainly do not think it would scale upward either. Do we really think nobody would be more attractive than the Pats, after he'd been franchised -- either by virtue of winning chances, dome setting, or cold hard cash?

    Seems unlikely.

    PFnV
  9. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree with Box_O_Rocks to a certain extent.

    Vinatieri might have been an improvement over Vanderjagt, but was he the best kicker in the league? I personally felt that after his early struggles (which is offset a bit with Vinatieri missing games due to injury), Gostkowski had a better year and post season than Vinatieri especially when you factor in kick offs. Vinatieri wasn't the best kicker on their field last night in my opinion.

    Vinatieri contribution to the Patriots other than the 2001 season has been overstated too. He kicked the game winning field goal against the Panthers in the Super Bowl in part because his mistakes earlier in the game made it neccessary to kick a last second field goal. He had mediocre years last year and in 2003.

    Although the Colts fans will rave about his season, I didn't think Vinatieri's season was all that special. He had a great game vs. the Ravens and one or two other games. But a moron like Sean Salisbury (who by the way guaranteed a Bears' win if Hestor had a return for a TD last night) said Vinatieri would net the Colts three more wins and lose the Pats two or three games for his loss. The Pats really didn't miss him and Vinatieri didn't do anything that at least a half dozen other kickers could have done for the Colts. And they would have stayed healthy all year.

    I think the Pats made some moves that hurt us a bit, but us losing Vinatieri wasn't one of them. In fact, when they announce our compensatory pick for him I will say the Pats got the far better end of the deal between the Colts and Pats on that one.
  10. Rob0729

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    People talk about the Vanderjagt missed field goal vs. the Steelers, but forget that it was Manning who choked in that game. It was the replay referee that screwed up and made Vanderjagt even have that kick. The game should have been over when Manning threw a pick right to Troy Polumalu. Even the league admitted that the replay ref got the call wrong when they overturned the interception (which I bet they would never have admitted to if the Colts ended up winning the game) which took the blame off of Manning and put it square on Vanderjagt's shoulders.
  11. patsgo

    patsgo Rookie

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    go sking, snowmobiling , or just take a long walk in the cold
  12. MoLewisrocks

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    First off, if you ask Colts players that infusion of clutch mentality to a team that felt somewhat snakebit meant a lot to them. Did you notice he was one of just 3 Colt captains on the team last night?

    And FYI we were under the cap without need to restructure before the CBA was approved. We sat on $13M for much of the season - the windfall was $12M. There were quite a few teams strapped for cap before the CBA approval and considering he only had 2 suitors before hand, neither one of which could have afforded him absent it, I doubt he could have left. Dallas had the room but since mending fences Tuna wasn't even going to consider signing away a player he believed belonged here.

    I think the intangibles associated with Brady and Adam were what propelled us to three rings. Ask Rodney what Ty Law said to him when he returned to the sidelines in a cast just in time to see Carolina tie XXXVIII.
  13. Box_O_Rocks

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    I'm so sorry, was Polian looking to re-sign Vanderjack and just lucked out when AV showed up looking for shelter from the elements? I thought he was scrambling through the K FA pool and running draft scenerios too.

    AV got five kicks against Baltimore, big whoop, the Ravens' K was just as able, it was the offense that was unable to move the ball into the Indy half of the field. Worshiping at the icon of Saint Adam is pure crap after the season and post-season his replacement had. Adam did not win the game Indy played against KC, Herm did that. Adam did his part in the Baltimore game, but he got there courtesy of a rookie S and a geriatric QB, not to mention his offense moving the ball into his range.

    Robbie Gould is the K who put his team into the Super Bowl with a game winning kick and he also had a 5 FG game. AV did his part the same as every other kicker not named Nate Kaeding did (poor kid got Marty'd again), nothing more, nothing less.

    Buy yourselves a Gostkowski jersey and quit worrying about a guy who did not want to play in New England anymore, he's been replaced by a guy who did make a difference in an up and down season with his kickoffs, which is why Devon Hester had those magnificent TD returns when the Bears played here. I'll save my AV praise for his enshrinement in the Patriots HOF, to give the guy credit, he probably did cement a spot in Canton buy being on a new SB winning team - anyone doubt that was part of his reason for leaving?
  14. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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  15. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Oh dammm, now we'll never see another SB until the Kraft family can obtain those intangibles again, c'mon Moe. :rolleyes:
  16. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    does anyone know anything pertaining to this?

    Prior to the CBA...how was Denver sitting with the cap?

    If the CBA was not redone would Denver have had enough cap room to trade for and then sign Javon Walker? Or would the Pats have been in a better position to sign JW?


    and the answer is...........................

    http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story/9117553

    OVER THE 2006 SALARY CAP

    Oakland Raiders -- $35 million over -- Plenty will come off with the decision not to bring back quarterback Kerry Collins.

    Denver Broncos -- $31 million over -- Denver is usually in this position and usually has little problem getting back under the cap.

    New York Jets -- $30 million over -- Some big-time quarterback decisions looming.

    Kansas City Chiefs -- $28 million over -- Franchise could be headed for some big changes.

    Washington Redskins -- $27 million -- At some point, Daniel Snyder has to pay.
  17. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    More importantly Branch wouldn't have had any suitors in trade and Ty Law could have likely been had for the price of a few routine restructures since neither Herm's old team or new team could have entered the fray.
  18. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    Very good points. I think they'd be sitting pretty.
  19. Rob0729

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    I think intangibles from Vinatieri are neglible. Kickers, even Vinatieri, have little affect if any on the offense and defense. McGinest was a bigger loss in that department than Vinatieri.

    In fact, Vinatieri almost single handily lost us the Super Bowl vs. Carolina. He had a miserable game that day except for that last kick.

    I buy that offensive and defensive leaders bring intangibles to the team. I don't think the kicker brings anything other than the comfort or fear whether they can make the big kick with the game on the line which doesn't come into play in every game.

    As for the Colts captains, most teams have at least one offensive, one defensive, and one special teams captain on their team. I missed the coin flip, but I don't think it was a big deal or something to intangibles that he was only one of three captains on the field. Larry Izzo is a captain on our team.

    I don't care how much cap room we had all year. I don't regret not resigning Vinatieri at all. We got a solid kicker for the next ten years in Gostkowski with a stronger leg and seems to be pretty clutch. We will get a high second day pick for losing Vinatieri. I can't think of any point in the season when we lost that I thought that if we had Vinatieri we would have won.
  20. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Did I say that? Better teams need fewer intangibles. But BB has that tendancy to test his teams limits for what you can accomplish on limited talent. Brady has talked extensively on the peace of mind he had knowing (believing) if he just did his job, the guy who then trots in would do his. Early this season there were one or two games which luckily we managed to win where Brady looked like he was gonna take the young kicker to the woodshd himself. Confidence and comfort can be derived from talent or intangibles or a combination of the two.
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