If Randy Moss gave half the effort that Wes Welker gives we'd have NFL's 2 best WRs

[ScottieC]

Re: If Randy Moss gave half the effort that Wes Welker gives we'd have NFL's 2 best W

It doesn't illustrate your point/argument at all.

Really?

This is what I said (Copied from above):

While I agree with Bill on Wes, my problem with the Miami comment is that he in no way had this type of production in Miami - now you can argue Tommy, but look at this year with Matt. I think he's taken his game to a new level in NE and proved what he can do in this league far past what he did in Miami.

How does his no's that you posted not reflect my arguement?

 

[Satchboogie3]

Re: If Randy Moss gave half the effort that Wes Welker gives we'd have NFL's 2 best W

Right, you have illustrated my point/arguement. He's more productive in NE (way more, like he's doubled his best year in another Uni), despite the guy that's throwing to him this year being a VERY green to almost "Rookie" QB.

The Chargers should be ashamed of themselves....check that - They should be absolutely embarrassed.

Yes, but you also have to realize that Welker runs mostly short and intermediate routes. The QB doesn't generally have to throw a 20+. Short passes and screens are far easier to throw than accurate deep balls.

Moss, on the other hand, rarely faces single coverage, and when he does, the QB STILL has to make an accurate deep pass.

Cassel is made for Welker, he can generally make good reads and accurate short passes. As for Moss, Cassel just can't utilize him well. If you can't throw a deep ball, it's damned hard to utilize a deep threat WR.

 

[ScottieC]

Re: If Randy Moss gave half the effort that Wes Welker gives we'd have NFL's 2 best W

It doesn't illustrate your point/argument at all. If it had only been the last game in Miami compared to the New England years, your argument would have validity. Given the rapid inflation of the numbers starting at the beginning of his career, it undercuts your argument, particularly when you add in the comments of BB and the Patriots defenders.

I see you added to your comment.

Your using some weird crystal ball theory that says, because he had X in Miami and his No's were increasing over two years, then he would have X+X in the years to come.

I have no argument for that, it's impossible to predict what would have happened. However, I can rely on the facts and they are:

Welker's No's in NE are far far beyond what he did in Miami - In NE he is virtually un-tradeable (Barring some NUTS trade with a contact that's similar - not going to happen), in Miami he was seen as expendable.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: If Randy Moss gave half the effort that Wes Welker gives we'd have NFL's 2 best W

Really?

This is what I said (Copied from above):

While I agree with Bill on Wes, my problem with the Miami comment is that he in no way had this type of production in Miami - now you can argue Tommy, but look at this year with Matt. I think he's taken his game to a new level in NE and proved what he can do in this league far past what he did in Miami.

How does his no's that you posted not reflect my arguement?

1.)

he in no way had this type of production in Miami

That's not true. He had tremendous production in his final year in Miami.

2.) You were basing your claim on an out of context response to a post I made answering a different poster, who asserted:

To a very large degree, Wes Welker is able to do does what he does because Randy Moss does what he does.

My response, which you then took only a minute portion of, was:

The Moss defenders are being just as bad as the 'bashers'. Welker was doing what he does in Miami, without Moss. That's why Belioli went out and got him in the first place. Also, Branch was playing the role of Welker before there was a Welker, and Troy Brown was playing the role before that. Moss opens things up, but he is not the generator of all things possible.

Naturally, when you posed your question, I took it as a legitimate question, rather than as the deliberately misleading context removal you have turned it into. Now that I know you're deliberately changing the meaning of what I posted, I'll just end this conversation with you.

Have a nice day.

 

[ScottieC]

Re: If Randy Moss gave half the effort that Wes Welker gives we'd have NFL's 2 best W

1.) That's not true. He had tremendous production in his final year in Miami.

2.) You were basing your claim on an out of context response to a post I made answering a different poster, who asserted:



My response, which you then took only a minute portion of, was:



Naturally, when you posed your question, I took it as a legitimate question, rather than as the deliberately misleading context removal you have turned it into. Now that I know you're deliberately changing the meaning of what I posted, I'll just end this conversation with you.

Have a nice day.

Wow, that's delusional.

Have a nice day, as well.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: If Randy Moss gave half the effort that Wes Welker gives we'd have NFL's 2 best W

I see you added to your comment.

Your using some weird crystal ball theory that says, because he had X in Miami and his No's were increasing over two years, then he would have X+X in the years to come.

I have no argument for that, it's impossible to predict what would have happened. However, I can rely on the facts and they are:

Welker's No's in NE are far far beyond what he did in Miami - In NE he is virtually un-tradeable (Barring some NUTS trade with a contact that's similar - not going to happen), in Miami he was seen as expendable.

OK, because this was posted before my "have a nice day post, I want to address a portion:

Welker's No's in NE are far far beyond what he did in Miami - In NE he is virtually un-tradeable (Barring some NUTS trade with a contact that's similar - not going to happen), in Miami he was seen as expendable.

by simply doing this:

Moss' No's in NE are far far beyond what he did in Oakland - In NE he is virtually un-tradeable (Barring some NUTS trade with a contact that's similar - not going to happen), in Oakland he was seen as expendable.

If your argument was viable on its own, I could just as easily say that Wes Welker is the reason that Moss' numbers have improved. After all, without Welker, Moss only caught 60 and 42 passes and only had 11 total touchdowns in 2 seasons. Welker opened things up so well for Moss that Moss' numbers went to 98 catches with 23 touchdowns last season, more than doubling his production from the season before.

 

[ScottieC]

Re: If Randy Moss gave half the effort that Wes Welker gives we'd have NFL's 2 best W

OK, because this was posted before my "have a nice day post, I want to address a portion:



by simply doing this:



If your argument was viable on its own, I could just as easily say that Wes Welker is the reason that Moss' numbers have improved. After all, without Welker, Moss only caught 60 and 42 passes and only had 11 total touchdowns in 2 seasons. Welker opened things up so well for Moss that Moss' numbers went to 98 catches with 23 touchdowns last season, more than doubling his production from the season before.

I agree with all that.

Not really sure what you are arguing about. My comment was a simple one:

Welkers production in NE is far better than it was in Miami.

You would agree that 117 is greater than 67, right? and that we can not say what he would have done in Miami with another year down there, right?

What I can say and I'm willing to stick myself out there is, Welker would NOT have led the league in receptions in 2007 on the Miami Dolphins. They were not that good, ya know? 1-15 I think.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: If Randy Moss gave half the effort that Wes Welker gives we'd have NFL's 2 best W

I agree with all that.

Not really sure what you are arguing about. My comment was a simple one:

Welkers production in NE is far better than it was in Miami.

You would agree that 117 is greater than 67, right? and that we can not say what he would have done in Miami with another year down there, right?

What I can say and I'm willing to stick myself out there is, Welker would NOT have led the league in receptions in 2007 on the Miami Dolphins. They were not that good, ya know? 1-15 I think.

You took a comment that was about 1 thing, removed it from context of both the paragraph around it and the entire conversation, and made an argument that had nothing to do with the discussion that it was being used for. So, if you want to say that the raw number is higher in New England than it was in Miami, and remove all context, obviously you're correct and, just as obviously, it doesn't mean a damned thing in the context of the assertion that "To a very large degree, Wes Welker is able to do does what he does because Randy Moss does what he does".

FYI

Moss' reception numbers showed greater improvement from his last Raiders season to his first Patriots season than did Welker's numbers, as Moss' reception total more than doubled, while Welker's did not.

 

[jays52]

Re: If Randy Moss gave half the effort that Wes Welker gives we'd have NFL's 2 best W

You know what I like about you, Deus? You argue full-tilt, full-time for 60 minutes. There's no quit in you!

 

[JAYHAWKS34]

Re: If Randy Moss gave half the effort that Wes Welker gives we'd have NFL's 2 best W

nice call Ian, I figured this crap would make its way to the PS

 

[ScottieC]

Re: If Randy Moss gave half the effort that Wes Welker gives we'd have NFL's 2 best W

You took a comment that was about 1 thing, removed it from context of both the paragraph around it and the entire conversation, and made an argument that had nothing to do with the discussion that it was being used for. So, if you want to say that the raw number is higher in New England than it was in Miami, and remove all context, obviously you're correct and, just as obviously, it doesn't mean a damned thing in the context of the assertion that "To a very large degree, Wes Welker is able to do does what he does because Randy Moss does what he does".

FYI

Moss' reception numbers showed greater improvement from his last Raiders season to his first Patriots season than did Welker's numbers, as Moss' reception total more than doubled, while Welker's did not.

I agree with all of that - I was not trying to start an argument with you on a topic that I think we both think similarly. If I took your comment out of context, than that's my bad.

 

[ScottieC]

Re: If Randy Moss gave half the effort that Wes Welker gives we'd have NFL's 2 best W

You know what I like about you, Deus? You argue full-tilt, full-time for 60 minutes. There's no quit in you!

I once said this about Deus.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...-not-start-another-one-page5.html#post1179952

I respect his opinion and passion.

 

[RayClay]

Re: If Randy Moss gave half the effort that Wes Welker gives we'd have NFL's 2 best W

Sorry for being objective, but the Pats SHOULD have lost that game yesterday. If it weren't for the effort of guys like Welker & Faulk making up for Randy's butterfingers/alligator arms the season would be toast right now!

You're not being objective, we're being kind. We wouldn't have two great wide receivers because Welker isn't a wide receiver, he's a slot receiver. He's a tiny little jitterbug safety valve who tries to find a whole in the zone about 5 yeards or so when no one's open.

Moss is arguably the most feared deep threat in football. He draws double and triple coverage every play. He almost always goes deep meaning he runs as much on one play as Welker does on 5-10 plays, if they don't get thrown to.

Before you start calling yourself objective, you might want to learn a bit of what you're talking about.

 

[RayClay]

Re: If Randy Moss gave half the effort that Wes Welker gives we'd have NFL's 2 best W

How many receivers play every play and go deep almost every play? Never mind being hit and double-tripled every play. There are some, but not many.

I bet Cleveland is glad bakes wasn't the coach in the 1960's. The way Jim Brown slowly dragged himself back to the huddle every play. Obviously didn't have the bounce we all like to see.

 

[Satchboogie3]

Re: If Randy Moss gave half the effort that Wes Welker gives we'd have NFL's 2 best W

OK, because this was posted before my "have a nice day post, I want to address a portion:



by simply doing this:



If your argument was viable on its own, I could just as easily say that Wes Welker is the reason that Moss' numbers have improved. After all, without Welker, Moss only caught 60 and 42 passes and only had 11 total touchdowns in 2 seasons. Welker opened things up so well for Moss that Moss' numbers went to 98 catches with 23 touchdowns last season, more than doubling his production from the season before.

Actually, no, you couldn't really say that. Here would be the actual argument:
Moss career averages before NE: 77.54 yds/g 15.8yds/rec 0.73 TD/G (0.15 TD/Rec)
Moss averages in NE: 80.48 yds/g 14.7 yds/rec 1.07 TD/G (0.19 TD/Rec)

That looks like he was a HOF WR before NE, and Brady made him even better

Welker averages before NE: 35.03 yds/g 11.7 yds/rec 0.03 TD/G (0.01 YD/Rec)
Welker averages in NE: 75.07 yds/g 10.57 yds/rec 0.31 TD/G (0.04 TD/REC)

To me, that looks like Moss improved a small bit over his career average (minus the huge TD increase), while Wekler absolutely exploded. If there is any arugment here, it is that Welker has looked like a different person when playing with Moss and Brady.
And please, anyone who says that "he was just a rookie, it was his first 2 seasons, blah blah blah", Moss had arguably the greatest first 2 season of any WR in history.

When you break it down, Moss is HOF, #2 greatest WR of all time. Welker is just STARTING to prove himself as a #1 SLOT receiver.

There is also no denying the fact that no one, and I mean NO ONE (short of Rice) gets into the endzone better. Moss is a TD machine, Welker, is not.

Now, I love Welker, but anyone who thinks he is a better receiver than Moss is just insane.