Welcome to PatsFans.com

If It Makes No Economic Sense Then Why IS China Doing It???

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by shmessy, Dec 11, 2009.

  1. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,881
    Likes Received:
    864
    Ratings:
    +2,413 / 20 / -20

    #75 Jersey

    From none other than Fogbuster's Dear Father's newspaper:

    China races ahead of U.S. to invest in green energy - Washington Times

    Ask yourself something, folks. Is there some kind of tree-hugging, scientific population in China forcing the iron fisted leaders into doing this for some sort of fuzzy "do-gooder" reason?????

    Or does it simply make sense and is the way to geopolitical strength in the future?

    Think. And then you will clearly see.

    When some "genius" like Palin urges "Drill, baby, drill", the people who want so desperately to believe that are the same people who desperately believe in the "Ice Cream Diet".
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2009
  2. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    31,859
    Likes Received:
    277
    Ratings:
    +723 / 17 / -19

    #24 Jersey

    I think most or all of us consider that to be one of the only things we want more spending on - BUT it has to be for good, efficient, cost effective energy solutions, not inefficient energy that is only made to look effiicient by carbon taxes that make oil look inefficient.

    My problem is the stimulus money was wasted (so far) on crap when it could have been used for energy research and natural gas conversions.
     
  3. JackBauer

    JackBauer Pro Bowl Player

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Messages:
    16,410
    Likes Received:
    358
    Ratings:
    +861 / 6 / -9

    Most of the stimulus money wasn't wasted. You could make the argument that the lion's share of wasted money was spent on tax cuts.
     
  4. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    31,859
    Likes Received:
    277
    Ratings:
    +723 / 17 / -19

    #24 Jersey

    Yes it was wasted because they were one time expenditures, nothing that would grow anything long term like using it to move to natural gas or other non oil energy sources. Heck, even building new nuke plants would have been great - tons of jobs for now and an ongoing benefit.
     
  5. JackBauer

    JackBauer Pro Bowl Player

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Messages:
    16,410
    Likes Received:
    358
    Ratings:
    +861 / 6 / -9

    I don't think that's necessarily true, and regardless, most of the stimulus hasn't even been spent yet.
     
  6. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,881
    Likes Received:
    864
    Ratings:
    +2,413 / 20 / -20

    #75 Jersey

    Right there (and in your subsequent post, where you mention Natural Gas and Nukes) you fall into the SAME trap.

    CURRENTLY, solar, wind, etc are not as economically efficient as the fossils and nukes. China is Gretzky - - skating to where the puck is GOING to be. You seem like John Wensink or Dave Schultz - -flat foots. Note that the cost of solar has decreased almost 50% in the past 12 months. Wind energy has decreased in cost also.

    China sees where this is going, which is why they will own the future if we keep having "Drill,baby,drill", "Think Only About Today" "Eat Dessert First" Sarah Palin's dragging us back to the 1950's in America.

    BF, Natural Gas is a stop-gap. Yes, it is more cost efficient in 2009. It is not the long-term answer. Nukes are not the long-term answer. The long-term answer is in technologies that (eventually) will be able to be produced on top of each of our roofs. There will be no need for centralized grids, etc.

    For all the right-wingers who are so fearful of government control over the individual, I would think would be four square in favor of the advent of individually controlled and produced energy.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2009
  7. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    25,356
    Likes Received:
    137
    Ratings:
    +364 / 9 / -13

    This is sort of funny and apparently some people are easily duped. They Chicoms re doing some public posturing and will sell some solar panels to people in he US and a few windmills IIRC The Chinese got money from the US for alt energy development and some congress critter made a stink.

    However from the same article here it the REALITY as opposed to the PR spin for the lefties.

    The rest is noise.
     
  8. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,881
    Likes Received:
    864
    Ratings:
    +2,413 / 20 / -20

    #75 Jersey

    Wow.

    Perhaps you missed this part of the Washington Times article:

    "China's need to sustain strong economic growth means its reliance on fossil fuels will continue to grow, as will its position as the world's biggest emitter of carbon, analysts say. But it is also investing heavily in windmills, solar panels and hydroelectric power, having doubled its wind generating capacity every year since 2005."

    The example you gave, showed coal increasing from 650m to 2.17t tons of coal in TWENTY YEARS.

    Meanwhile the article as quoted here shows their DOUBLING of wind energy EVERY SINGLE YEAR since 2005.

    The entire energy pie will be bigger, no doubt, but the article CLEARLY states that China is aiming to DOUBLE the non-fossil fuel share of that pie - - that's percetnage-wise share - - not total output. Big difference.

    Perhaps that's "noise" to you. I'm happy that our leaders today aren't the same short-attention span Homer Simpson's we had for eight years previously.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2009
  9. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    31,859
    Likes Received:
    277
    Ratings:
    +723 / 17 / -19

    #24 Jersey

    I've said 6,000 times that an energy solution is the one thing I would agree to more government spending for. I don't believe, though, that wind and solar are currently as cost effective as what we have, there's work to be done.

    What I want to know is why is little happening almost a year into the obamination and why did we have 8 years of Clinton/GORE with nothing to show for it . . .
     
  10. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    27,366
    Likes Received:
    305
    Ratings:
    +830 / 7 / -2

    That article is worthless. China is going to triple it's coal use in the next 11 years time. How is China going green? It says how they "manufacture" more solar panels than any other country. Well no ship. They manufacture everything more than any other country. Also, China's "going green" includes evicting entire towns and villages for the sake of building a damn. Damns that are paid for with carbon credits from countries that aren't exempt from the kyoto Treaty. Has anyone seen the pollution in china? Do they require emissions tests for their vehicles? how about for its industry? That China is looking for ways to augment it's growing industry, modernizing populace, for the future, doesn't make it a leader in going green. That article says nothing. They are going to burn triple the amount of coal they do now, by 2020! Give me a break!
     
  11. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,881
    Likes Received:
    864
    Ratings:
    +2,413 / 20 / -20

    #75 Jersey

    It has been more than DOUBLING EACH YEAR its non-fossil fuel production since 2005.

    This was stated twice already in this thread from the article.

    Do the math.

    Further it said the renewables will go from 8% to 15-17% of the ALLOCATION of the energy pie. That does NOT mean that renewables are doubling. That means that the percentage of the ever widening China energy usage pie that will be renewables is doubling.

    It's a very simple to understand distinction.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2009
  12. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2007
    Messages:
    27,148
    Likes Received:
    179
    Ratings:
    +510 / 6 / -24

    #18 Jersey

    So, you're saying China is going green AND tripling it's coal consumption? Pretty impressive!:rolleyes:
     
  13. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    25,356
    Likes Received:
    137
    Ratings:
    +364 / 9 / -13





    The Chicoms are using obamabucks for a job creation program in china not the us and the are dumping solar panel in europe:

    What To Do About China?

    So while stimulus created no real jobs here we did subsidize manf jobs for China... meanwhile the coal plants continue to come online.


    BTW do some research on WHO energy in terms of % the Chicoms see coming from wind and Solar I'll bet it's <2% prove me wrong.
     
  14. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    27,366
    Likes Received:
    305
    Ratings:
    +830 / 7 / -2

    Non fossil fuels include Hydro and nukes no? Cuz the article also says this later.

    So which is it? One line says 8% currently comes from non-fossil fuels, and another says it gets 25% (one fourth is a quarter = 25% ) from hydro. I'm confused. Am I reading this wrong?

    0.1%!!!!!!!!!


    This is nice.

    So, solar power makes up .1% right now, and they are aiming for a ten fold increase. Cool. A whopping 1%.

    What's awesome is how their wind power isn't even connected to the electrical grid. Nice!

    Where does all this put us comparatively?

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    27,366
    Likes Received:
    305
    Ratings:
    +830 / 7 / -2

    China is anything but stupid. They are going to let the western world destroy itself with it's ponzi scheme MMGW taxes, while it enjoys exemptions, and ignores any responsibilities it's mandated. When the west diminishes it's economic advantages, China will be poised to flash everyone else the finger, from it's perch at the top.
     
  16. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    25,356
    Likes Received:
    137
    Ratings:
    +364 / 9 / -13

    the Copenhagen nonsense certainly their manufacturing competitiveness vs the EU and USA.

    Good point RW.
     
  17. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,881
    Likes Received:
    864
    Ratings:
    +2,413 / 20 / -20

    #75 Jersey

    Doubling each single year on renewables and tripling each 11 years on coal.

    Do the math.
     
  18. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,881
    Likes Received:
    864
    Ratings:
    +2,413 / 20 / -20

    #75 Jersey


    China doesn't spend $1 trillion on unnecessary wars to find WMDs that didn't exist.
     
  19. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    25,356
    Likes Received:
    137
    Ratings:
    +364 / 9 / -13

    Doubling almost nothing is almost nothing....:p
     
  20. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,881
    Likes Received:
    864
    Ratings:
    +2,413 / 20 / -20

    #75 Jersey

    15-17% of that pie by 2020 according to the article.

    Where it is by 2050 could be well into the majority.

    Keep thinking only of the present, though. Just as funny as the folks in the American West in the 1870's who laughed at the all-too-expensive train system being built when the horse drawn covered wagons were much cheaper and abundant.

    Meanwhile, read up on the efforts by the overwrought Saudi delegation at that Copenhagen Conference this week if you want a real laugh.

    If you want to stay in place, do so. The rest of us are embracing the future.
     

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>