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Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by patfanken, Dec 26, 2006.

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  1. patfanken

    patfanken On the Roster

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    #91 Jersey

    ...and there are SO MANY today, so be patient with me.

    SUNDAY'S GAME:

    1. I thought we pretty much dominated the game on Sunday in almost EVERY area. The 3 TB scores were pretty much gimmees by the Pats. The first TD was a pure fluke (more on that below). The second was a broken play, right after losing a TO on a questionable, but understandable and expected make up call. The last could be attributed to the dreaded "prevent" defense syndrom, however it doesn't excuse Hobbs woefully botched tackle.

    The vaunted Jags defense rarely shut down the Pats (IIRC there was only one 3 and out the entire game), and most failed drives came because of penalties or lack of execution FROM THE PATS, rather than excellent play by the Jags. Based upon what I have seen lately, in the Playoffs the Pats will be able to move the ball against ANY defense, even on the road. How much they score will be determined on how sharp they are, and if they can "close".

    2. Brady will get a lot of kudos for this effort and by and large he deserves them, however this wasn't one of his best games. He was bailed out a number of times by his receivers (a nice change BTW- ) and I can't forgive him for missing Brown on that 3rd down play late in the game. For a clutch QB, it was a bad time to miss an open WR. On the bright side, it would have been a career day for 80% of the rest of the league's QBs, and Tom probably feels worse about his B+ performance than me.

    3. Before everyone give TBC a scarlet letter, consider this. There was no way for him to know that Jones-Drew had bounced off his own teammate. IF he HAD be legally down, and TBC tackled him, he would have been hit with a PF call and cost his team 15 yds. If fact Hawkins has been quoted saying they'd already been warned for hitting after the man was down.

    While an unfortunate turn of events, it was really just a fluke play. A series of unforseen events that are unlikely to occur again. I would find it hard to assign blame or coach someone to do anything basically different, except to tell TBC to hold on to him for a while longer, and THAT's merely monday morning QBing, coming from perfect 20-20 hingsight.

    4. The OL needs to get a few KUDOS for this effort. They ran the ball well concidering the chances they got, and the Pass protection was excellent, though for the life of me, I cannot understand WHY the Jags didn't blitz more. Clearly that has been the ONLY way to stop this offense.

    5. I have come to 2 disappointing conclusions after watching this game. A. Chad Jackson is going to have little impact on this season (though I reserve the right to be wrong....and hope that I am. ), and that Ellis Hobbs isn't going to rise above beening a good nickel back Not that there's anything wrong with that. Having a good NB is critical to a good secondary. I just don't think that he has the stuff to be a starting CB. If we keep Samuel, we need to have a bigger more physical CB on the opposite side. Right now that is Chad Scott, but hopefully we can upgrade in the offseason. On Jackson, I counsel patience, there have been A LOT of great WRs in this league who have had "lost" rookie seasons. It would have been nice if he were a quick bloomer, but he isn't. That doesn't mean he won't be a significant contributor in the future.

    6. The special teams coverage and return teams are seemingly peaking at just the right time. Watching the Bears win a couple of game just through special teams reminds me that I wouldn't be surprised if we won a playoff game because of our excellent teams play this season.

    On the kicking side, Gotkowski's KO's contunue to be a big reason for our good KO coverage, and his FG's have been as good as expected. Unfortunately if he'd been perfect during the regulars season, we STILL wouldn't know how he'd do in a critical situation in the playoffs. Only time will tell. As for Sourbrund (whatever ), he didn't impress or stink on Sunday. However I hope we will see better as he adjusts.

    7. I was goind to ask if anyone knew how being in the playoffs affected the Seattle pick, but that was well answered in another thread. It looks like 22 seems to be the number, and that's a better spot than I would have thought, thought I can't help thinking that the Seahawks won a few tainted games this year, and them going 7-9 and having a mid teen pick, was tantalizingly close.

    GENERAL THOUGHTS:

    8. I watched more game around the league than I usually do and I have come to the conclusion that THEY HAVE to do SOMETHING about roughing the passer, especially the blow to the head call. In the Dallas/Eagle game an Eagle DE made a hard rush while being BRUTALLY held. As all good DLmen do, he had his free hand up as he bull rushed the man blocking him. WITHOUT swinging the hand, he made contact with the QB and sacked him. Yes his arm hit the QB in the head, but I thought that was why QB's wore helmets. There was nothing EXTRA in the blow. If the league is going to allow that kind of play to be penalized, they might as well outlaw DLmen from raising their hands above their shoulders as they near a QB. Yes, its THAT stupid an interpretation.

    9. As to the Seymour call, IMHO that WAS NOT too late. The QB hadn't even finished his throwing motion before he was hit. On the other hand, it was to be expected, since the Pats were given a marginal roughing call earlier in the game. BTW the Jags LB WAS very late in hitting Brady, but the love tap he gave him should have been penalized by a slap in the face and derrision from his own teamates. . In fact later in the game Brady WAS pushed down well after he threw the ball. Again it was nothing but a love tap, but if the officials could call the other 2, why not this one.

    10. On the play Brady was hurt, THAT WAS THE TEXT BOOK DEFINITION OF A SPEAR. IMHO the player should have been immediately ejected as well as a PF call. Hitting another player with the top of your helmet is the only contact in the game that should be vigilantly called EVERYTIME. Not only can the player being speared be badly injured, but the spearer, himself, can easily break his own neck. Almost all of the severe neck injuries incurred in the game we love so much are caused by hitting another body or the ground with the top of the helmet. THAT is a real danger to both the hitter, and the hitee. The league, the player's union, and the media should do EVERYTHING they can to eliminate this play.

    Unfortunately the play was COMPLETELY ignored by all parties, and it was only luck that prevented a serious injury to either party. Perhaps I am more sensative to this play because I had a great young player break his neck, spearing someone. Thank god, there was no paralysis, but it ended a promising career and a scholarship opportunity to a kid who needed it.

    Hitting with the front of the helmet (facemask) puts a player's body in strongest position to avoid injury, hitting with the top, puts the neck into a very vunerable position. That is why EVERY coach teaches to keep your head UP when tackling, and that is why I wince so often when I continually see players at the highest level of the game, CONTINUALLY lower their heads when tackling.

    Thanks for letting me vent.

    It was interesting watching the Bengal/Bronco game. For the life of me, I couldn't figure out who to root for. I hate the Bronco's ever since the famed Shannon Sharpe call for the police. I hate the Bengal's chronic police blotter. Finally I tried to figure out who I would want the Pats to play in the playoffs, and decided I wanted the Broncos.

    As I watch the Bengal's consistantly shoot themselves in the foot, yet STILL be in an away game against a good team. I decided that if they offense EVER managed to keep their TO's to less than 3 they'd be a real problem, and if they ever managed to have a clean game, they'd be as tough as Indy on their best day. Denver doesn't represent that kind of problem, IMHO. Besides what could be better than to wipe that smirk off of Shannahan's skull.

    I know people will disagree for a lot of reasons, but I for one was happy with the results last sunday.
  2. sarge

    sarge Rookie

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    You mean the famed "Call the national guard". I was pissed at him. But you have to admit, if you were a fan of any other team in the league, it was hilarious. And they were "killing the Patriots".
  3. PromisedLand

    PromisedLand Virtual Internet Person

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    ..........
  4. thomas144

    thomas144 Rookie

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    I always thought that Shannon Sharpe bit was hilarious. Loved it. And I'm a Patriots fan!
  5. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I'm with PL on the whistle. The officiating is making it tough on the players but if they hit the opposition with no whistle having blown the odds are with them, assuming it's not a QB of course. Play to the whistle and take your chances.

    I agree that Brady wasn't sharp, although from the Reiss article on McDaniels this was a very different gameplan than even the Minnesota game so Brady may have simply missed some passes because of throwing to routes that he hasn't practiced to a lot this year.

    On the Seattle pick, it's looking like #22 if they win this week but if they lose it could drop down to 18 or 19. We need the 8-7 teams to win as they would all pick after Seattle if Seattle loses this week.

    Although Denver worries me based on our history, I am with you that Cincy worries me more. The two ways I can see us losing are : 1) Several turnovers and 2) Prolific passing attack. Get Cincy on the wrong day and they could have their way with us.
  6. mac

    mac Rookie

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    Re the third down overthrow late: the one thing that could have lost or tied the game at that point would have been to throw a pick. Unless the pass was a gimme and it was too long to be a gimme, the play to be made is to throw the ball away. I, for one, will take the Tom Brady of Sunday any day over the I gotta win it by myself Tom.
  7. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    Come on, had TBC known beforehand that it was 15 yards or a TD, or course he would have jumped on the guy. This is like telling a guy who got into an accident that he should have taken a different road. "If it was a choice between getting broadsided or taking a longer, out of the way route, you should take the out of the way route.

    If Drew had been legitiamtely down (knocked down by a Patriot) and TBC had jumped on him and drew a 15 yard penalty, you'd be screaming your head off. "WHY did TBC jump on a guy well after he was down? Ruined a good play and kept thier drive alive."

    Point is TBC had no way of knowing the guy was not down. As far as playing to the whistle, that is not defense against a late hit penalty if the guy is down. Whistle or not, you can still get unnecessary roughness called if you dive onto a guy that is down.
  8. PromisedLand

    PromisedLand Virtual Internet Person

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    I already explained that while of course TBC had no way of knowing Drew would go for a touchdown, whenever anyone, especially a guy as fast and shift of him, is ALREADY past the second line of defense you are in big trouble. TBC has to know that, and to his credit, he admitted his mistake after the game.

    As for your second point, did you watch the game? If you did then you know what you said is nonsense. TBC was not diving on anybody - Drew had already gotten up again before Cain touched him. What he should have done was wrap him up and throw the much smaller man to the ground. Instead, he kind of let him go, Kiwanuki-like. I do realize the NFL has made it tough on players with the frequent flags for unecessary roughness, etc., but you still have to play to the whistle.
  9. Box_O_Rocks

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    Sorry neighbor, TBC admitting a mistake is no defense for jumping all over him for being cautious about drawing a penalty in a playoff-level game. The rules are what they are and players are going to be confused by the interpretation being made by officials in any one game. TBC thought he was down, whistle or no whistle, any extracurricular activity on his part was a 15 yd penalty and a date in BB's doghouse.

    Crap happens, instead of dumping on him look at how he reacted afterwards - tackles in the backfield and pressure on the QB (both turnovers came after TBC forced Garrard to hurry a throw or scramble). Players make mistakes, he made one that should be understandable, he then put it behind him and played to win the game - the same way we expect Tommy to put an interception or missed pass behind him - TBC had a good game and stood out by making plays.
  10. Mainefan

    Mainefan Rookie

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    Oh, by the way, Patfranken, that was a terrific post. I suppose that's another way of saying I agree with everything you said, but what the hell.

    You raised a question I'd really like to see debated here: why didn't the Jags blitz more? Didn't they have a tape of the Miami game?
  11. BelichickFan

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    I'm not ready to agree with you on Hobbs. For this year, yes. Which is why a big passing attack worries me more than a big running attack. But considering Hobbs has only played a little more than a year (last half of 2005, most of 2006 minus a few games out due to the wrist), it's far too early to think he can't make a Samuel type jump in the next year.
  12. Mike the Brit

    Mike the Brit Minuteman Target PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Thanks, PFK -- great food for thought, as always. Two small points of disagreement.

    I'm with those who think that TBC made a mistake, not for not piling onto Drew when he was on the ground, but for making such a half-hearted effort when he got up. TBC switched off, I believe. It's easy to see why he did but linebackers must play with maximum intensity. I hope he's learned a lesson.

    But let's give some credit here. Jones-Drew was just terrific. He seemed to be able to burrow under the pile for an extra couple of yards every time -- so much so, that I thought perhaps he had a shovel and was digging a tunnel. ;) I don't think that Tedy wants to have to deal with him again any time soon.

    I don't agree with your pessimism about Hobbs. He's in a cast, remember (like Bruschi) -- and you have to accept that cornerbacks will sometimes just get beaten. But let's say that "all" he turns into is an outstanding nickel back. That would free him up for more kick returning at which he is absolutely terrific. What's more, I can't see anything about him that wouldn't make him very suitable as a punt returner. Return man plus nickel back? Not disappointing to me.

    I agree very much with what you say about Brady: poise, guts, leadership, judgement -- score 10/10 for that. But he was inaccurate on Sunday, there's no getting away from it. One thing I'd like your views on is: has this got to do with wet weather? No quarterback likes the rain, of course, but I have to wonder whether it doesn't upset TB more than some others. Do you remember the glove-or-no-glove debates of 2002? It was pretty wet too when he was comprehensively outplayed by Pennington in the home loss to the Jets (as I can well remember!)

    I very much sympathize with your polemic about spearing. It seems to me that helmet contact is something that the league is much less fierce about than it could be. On the other hand, I'm not convinced that the helmet contact was not accidental in this case. At least, there's doubt.

    Thanks again.
  13. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree with the sentiment expressed about TBC on that play. Yah, he shoulda hit the guy as he was rising up but I'm sure that players are unsure if the whistle is blown on many plays.

    Last week I'd criticized TBC's year to date run game play. I have not re-watched this game but my initial impression was that TBC did quite well playing the run sunday, that one understandible mistake aside.
  14. PromisedLand

    PromisedLand Virtual Internet Person

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    "jumping all over him"? Please show me where I did that.
  15. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Sorry neighbor, a little over the top on my part. I was fired up by several other comments in various threads on the play, my apologies for letting you catch the stronger than needed response.
  16. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    Hobbs is a competitor, he has heart, he fights every play. That's why I keep him on the Pats and start him.
  17. cstjohn17

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    #54 Jersey

    TBC has been playing well, I was not sold on him but he has played quite well at OLB. Overall the defense is playing great, a little more focus will be necessary in the play-offs but they have been so much more consistent than 2005. I thought the D line had one its better games, Seymour and Warren were very good and Wright held his own. Nice post, good idle random thoughts.
  18. jczxohn1

    jczxohn1 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    All TBC had to do was reach out and touch him while he was down instead of stand there and watch him get up.
  19. psychoPat

    psychoPat Role Player PatsFans.com Supporter

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    OUTstanding post ... again!

    Your vent against spearing
    is the part that should be faxed to league hq.
    I agree entirely.
    So does any other knowledgeable ... or even reasonable ... fan!
  20. VJCPatriot

    VJCPatriot Rookie

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    I've got to agree with the spearing comment. It's just a very dangerous play for both people involved. With the size and strength of pro football players there is no way they need to resort to spearing to bring a man down. Fundamental tackling is heads up, wrap the ball carrier, hit him around his center of balance, and lower pads usually win. Is it that hard to remember?

    And yeah I'm happy we got out of there with a win. And no I don't get why threads are popping up complaining about all our players after that game. Pats just guaranteed us a playoff berth. I assure you the best parts are yet to come.
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