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Idle thoughts...

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by patfanken, Nov 24, 2009.

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  1. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

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    ... I've been away from the computer for the past few weeks and a lot has happened. There are some things I need to get off my chest. Thanks in advance for your patience.

    First the Colts game. I have to say that it was as bad a loss as I can remember....second only to the "the game that shall not be mentioned". Very painful.

    Make no mistake, it was a game the Pats LOST, not one that Colts won....and leads to a concern, not about the defense, but the offense. There have now been 3 huge losses the Pats have sustained recently when the offense needed just ONE first down to salt a game away.....and couldn't do it. In every case the problem was self inflicted....a penalty, a drop, a missed pass, a bad run, etc.

    While I know this has probably been discussed ad nauseum, I have to weigh in on BB's call to go for it on his own 28. I totally agree with his dicision for the following reasons. Not having TBC, Ninkovich, Warren, Green, etc, meant that the DL who was out there had played the majority of the 70+ plays the Colts offense got. It was clear in the last drive that there would be no pass rush.

    For BB the choice was easy. First he was putting the game on the line with his BEST asset, his offense. Secondly he felt, and I agree, that should he fail, it would be a lot easier for the Pats to defend a contained space of 28 yds than a full field of 70+. He probably felt that given the lack of pass rush AND the time the Colts would have had, he probably would have ended up in the same point, ONLY then, he would have a DL who had rushed the passer 4-5 more times without rest. Now he got them knowing they only had to defense a short field and would only have to do it for 6-8 plays. The reward clearly outweighed the risk

    On the 4th down play, I thought I saw a replay the CLEARLY showed that Faulk had complete control of the ball right at the 30 yd line. the Pats, IMHO got a bad spot. It happens. Bad luck that they couldn't challenge.

    I have MORE of a problem with the play selection. On 3rd and 2, when you KNOW you are in 4 down territory, a running play would have been more appropriate. Clearly the Colts wouldn't have expected it, and even if you DON'T get it you have your 4th down to pick it up. BOTH plays showed the Colts were clearly covering for the 3 yd pass. I thought that they Pats could have done other things, like pick plays to get receivers open.

    Now on to other things

    1. The fact Ron Brace STILL can't get on the field is now VERY troubling. Still 11 of 12 isn't a bad draft.

    2. In the Jet game they clearly saw that the C was a weakness. They BLEW him up on every punt. I thnk we need some more beef in the interior of the punt formation. Not only is the snapper a lightweight, it looked like the other interior guys are also LB types. Other teams will notice this and try to exploit it. One punt got blocked and a few more were uncomfortably close.

    3. I'm liking this secondary more and more. Not just because of the pick but because of the tightness of the coverage. Even completions are, for the most part tightly contested. Wilhite's coverage on the Jets TD pass was excellent. It was just a perfectly thrown pass. I was happy his coverage got noticed on Boddin's 3rd pick. This is now a good secondary that will only get better as time goes on.

    4. I hate to say it, but Derrell Revis IS that good. Thank god he plays for the Jets, and NOT a team that is relevent. :D

    5. BTW, speaking of the Jets, if I were a fan of them, I would now start to be getting worried that he's a lot more like Jay Cutler than he is Tom Brady. He is capable of making some excellent throws, like the passes up the middle, and the TD throw, but JUST as "capable" of throwing the "I can't believe he just did that" throw. I had originally thought he was the franchise QB that poor Jet fans have longed for since Joe Willie left 40 years ago, but now I'm not sure. On the other hand, it's still real early in his career to make judgments one way or the other.

    6. I want to go on record saying that if/when we meet the Colts again in the playoffs, I'm very confident, even in Indy. The Colts are having a dream season. They are getting break after break, and the one thing we know about getting all the breaks, is that eventually the worm turns. The escaped against us, and they did it again in Baltimore. I don't care if they win the rest of their games, because they ARE NOT going to beat the Pats again. Take that to the bank.

    7. It should be a great game vs the Saints. They are a very exciting team and a great challenge. Its just bad luck that we have had to play BOTH the Colts and Saints on the road. But this offense doesn't get flustered in domes. I see us winning it.

    8. Its pretty heartening when your THIRD string LT gets in the game and performs well. Brady had good time for the most part on Sunday, as his string of 300 yd games continues.

    9. I do have a concern with the fact that Issiah Stanback is getting significant time as a WR. I think we need to bolster that position before the end of the season. Too often Brady has had EXTENDED time in the pocket and has been unable to find anyone.

    Thanks for the vent
  2. Patspsycho

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    Re: Idle thoughts.....

    Excellent insights from you as always.

    Regarding #2, the problem started in the Bucs game, I believe and teams have been trying to exploit that ST weakness ever since. It has to be fixed now.

    Why are you concerned with Stanback? I see him as a solid asset, he has not been out of position as far as I can see, and has delivered solid chips, slip screens, etc.
  3. PatsWickedPissah

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    Re: Idle thoughts.....

    quote=patfanken;16083621. The fact Ron Brace STILL can't get on the field is now VERY troubling. Still 11 of 12 isn't a bad draft.

    I sat behind the Pats D bench and Brace sits alone and forlorn on the D bench

    2. In the Jet game they clearly saw that the C was a weakness. They BLEW him up on every punt. I thnk we need some more beef in the interior of the punt formation. Not only is the snapper a lightweight, it looked like the other interior guys are also LB types. Other teams will notice this and try to exploit it. One punt got blocked and a few more were uncomfortably close.

    Rookie LS Ingram is a tall skinny dude, not stocky like his predicessor

    3. I'm liking this secondary more and more. Not just because of the pick but because of the tightness of the coverage. Even completions are, for the most part tightly contested. Wilhite's coverage on the Jets TD pass was excellent. It was just a perfectly thrown pass. I was happy his coverage got noticed on Boddin's 3rd pick. This is now a good secondary that will only get better as time goes on.

    I like the talent; I'm more concerned about the designed soft coverages

    5. BTW, speaking of the Jets, if I were a fan of them, I would now start to be getting worried that he's a lot more like Jay Cutler than he is Tom Brady. He is capable of making some excellent throws, like the passes up the middle, and the TD throw, but JUST as "capable" of throwing the "I can't believe he just did that" throw. I had originally thought he was the franchise QB that poor Jet fans have longed for since Joe Willie left 40 years ago, but now I'm not sure. On the other hand, it's still real early in his career to make judgments one way or the other.

    It's not too early to note that he keeps making terrible and I mean really terrible decisions. Time and again. Nobody says he lacks talent but given an NFL arm, decisionmaking is key.

    6. I want to go on record saying that if/when we meet the Colts again in the playoffs, I'm very confident, even in Indy. The Colts are having a dream season. They are getting break after break, and the one thing we know about getting all the breaks, is that eventually the worm turns. The escaped against us, and they did it again in Baltimore. I don't care if they win the rest of their games, because they ARE NOT going to beat the Pats again. Take that to the bank.

    Perhaps foolishly, but I'm really confident about winning against the Colts were we to meet in the playoffs, a feeling I have NOT had in recent matchups.

    7. It should be a great game vs the Saints. They are a very exciting team and a great challenge. Its just bad luck that we have had to play BOTH the Colts and Saints on the road. But this offense doesn't get flustered in domes. I see us winning it.

    I have no idea who'll win. It would be nice to win on the road, beat a winning team and slightly atone for the Colts implosion.

    8. Its pretty heartening when your THIRD string LT gets in the game and performs well. Brady had good time for the most part on Sunday, as his string of 300 yd games continues.

    I was of course impressed with SeaBass my big binky from the draft & summer camp. (Edes is my little binky) If some post game analysis says SeaBass had help on most plays, disregard it. I specificly watched for this against a blitzkrieg team. LeVoir wasn't bad either.

    9. I do have a concern with the fact that Issiah Stanback is getting significant time as a WR. I think we need to bolster that position before the end of the season. Too often Brady has had EXTENDED time in the pocket and has been unable to find anyone.

    Thanks for the vent[/quote]

    Stanback is not a liability. The Pats were platooning 2 different receiver corps, what I called the big wideouts on 1st down followed by the smaller corps (Edelman) on later downs. Changed at least 2 WRs per play. And they mixed up the groupings. BB wanted the Jets thinking about wholly different personell on each defensive play. Thinking makes you react slower.

    P.S. I also watched Brady's head and eyes. Disturbingly, I saw him lock onto either Welker or Moss immediately after the snap. There were many times he was not doing a read progression. Maybe he decided pre-snap that the blitz would make his target open and just planned to go there. In the past it was easy to watch Tom progress thru his reads. I fault this fixation on the big 2 more than I fault his 3rd and 4th guys not being open.
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2009
  4. Gwedd

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    Re: Idle thoughts.....

    Good post, and I can't really disagree with anything you've said.

    Thanks! :cool:
  5. Kid~Brady

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    Re: Idle thoughts.....

    good stuff tho.... made some good points and acknowledges in there to me

    kudos
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2009
  6. BelichickFan

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    Re: Idle thoughts.....

    Agree about Brace.

    2nd half offense problems are due to #3 WR and RB issues IMO. This should get better as Edelman has returned and gets more experience and when Morris and hopefully Taylor return.

    Sanchez is no Cutler. Cutler without the arm, maybe.
  7. Patspsycho

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    Re: Idle thoughts.....

    I think this was the game plan to do so anyway to beat the blitz because they'd already elected to play empty, which means you have to get rid of the ball fast.
  8. robertweathers

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    Re: Idle thoughts.....

    At least they are putting Brace on the field in short yardage now (1 play whoop-de doo). Before they wern't even doing that.
  9. Box_O_Rocks

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    Re: Idle thoughts.....

    And here we have the thing that's bothered me about Brady this season.
  10. Marqui

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    Re: Idle thoughts.....

    In Brace's defense, it's not uncommon for DTs to develop very slowly. BJ Raji and Peria Jerry (the only DTs drafted ahead of Brace) haven't done squat this season either.
  11. PatsWickedPissah

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    Re: Idle thoughts.....

    I agree with your game plan statement and with the efficacy of such a plan against the blitzing Jets. However, there were other plays where he had time and it seemed to me quite often (of course not always) Brady just watched one guy. Obviously not a scientific sample. I've studied Brady closely for years when I've had the opportinity to get a field level closeup and he seems to me to have developed some 'bad' habits with his super wideouts.
  12. PatsWickedPissah

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    Re: Idle thoughts.....

    Just noticed your post. As a 2001 summer training camp Brady's Lady I'm a bit concerned that he's fixated just a bit too much on the stars. Brady of old had to look at more, lesser options. That said, it could be a function of current era D coordinators' attacks on Brady - he gets blitzed more now than 3-6 years ago therefore he has less time to progress. If I knew the answer I'd be making close to 7 figures as an NFL coordinator.
  13. mayoclinic

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    Re: Idle thoughts.....

    Agreed. It was worst in the Denver game, when it was painful to watch. It was better against the Colts, but reverted somewhat last week.

    At least we shouldn't need to have our TEs exclusively used in blocking this week, and hopefully Watson and Baker can get involved in the passing offense.
  14. tbrown

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    Re: Idle thoughts.....

    I'm so glad that someone brought this up - TOTALLY agree on this. Love Brady, and he has come back BIG time this year, but this is a problem.

    Great insights as always PFK, keep them coming.
  15. letekro

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    Re: Idle thoughts.....

    Good takes. The only thing I take exception to is Brace. I think he's still an unknown commodity. We only know that he is not as good as Warren, Green, Pryor, Wilfork, and Wright, each of whom has played very well for the most part. The fact that he didn't get in much against the colts doesn't mean much because BB would probably rather have a tired pass rushing DL, such as Wright or Pryor, than a NON-pass rushing DL like Brace, against Manning.
  16. MoLewisrocks

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    Re: Idle thoughts.....

    Sanchez is nothing like Cutler beyond careless. Cutler is an arrogant prick. Sanchez reminds me more of Romo, loveable, emotional, inconsistent, can't read defenses but won't let it stop him. :D

    Like Romo, Sanchez has the potential to win you more games than he loses, albeit never quite enough, if were coached better and faced more realistic expectations. Cutler will lose you more games than he wins in spite of sound coaching and expectations. He killed Shannahan (although that was kind like assisted suicide) and he tried to kill Josh and he's gonna kill Lovie by season's end (although that too may be a case of assisted scuicide because he backed Rex for too long and squandered his defenses prime kinda like Shanny did with Jake).
  17. MoLewisrocks

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    Re: Idle thoughts.....

    Probably would have bothered you in 2008 had be played. He's admitted it as has BB, but the rationale is he does so with sound reason. He finds the open receiver he trusts will be where he's supposed to be and make a catch these days... He counts on Moss and Welker because they have given him reason to. Watson never consistently did until early this season. Edleman is a rookie conversion project work in progress who's progress got interrupted and Stanback just emerged as a rookie conversion project in his first game.

    Brady has been well conditioned to avoid costly mistakes and turnovers. He needs time and reps with his evolving #3 and #4 to even begin to trust them under pressure. Hopefully by season's end that will be there. Would like to see that developed between Brady and Maroney as well, similar to the trust he feels with Faulk.
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2009
  18. Nikolai

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    Re: Idle thoughts.....

    Don't let Romo fool you, he's pretty arrogant himself. It's anecdotal, but I understand that a lot of people he went to school couldn't stand the guy. Sanchez seems like a decent enough guy, and I think you nailed him otherwise.
  19. robertweathers

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    Re: Idle thoughts.....

    Maroney just doesnt have the feel for the passing game. Screens and dump offs but thats it.
  20. shakadave

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    Colts comments

    . .. ... ....
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2009
  21. DaBruinz

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    Stanbeck is getting extended time as the #3 WR because of Aiken being out and because Edelman is still recovering from his broken arm so the Pats seem to be limiting his use right now. That being said, Stanbeck is holding his own. I'd like to see the Pats line up Watson out there with Baker inside. I think that would make for a very interesting combination.
  22. Rob0729

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    I wouldn't give up on Brace just yet. Warren and Wilfork both struggled a lot their rookie years and they were both first round picks. Brace comes from a one gap, 4-3 defense and is learning the 3-4 2 gap. It takes time.
  23. Box_O_Rocks

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    Warren and Wilfork were platooned with veterans their rookie year, any struggle was with technique - I can't speak for Warren, but Wilfork needed 1.5 seasons with several starts as a rookie to "get it." The report on Brace was he was struggling with technique before he was sat down after game two, I know he was listed with an ankle injury for the Colts. I'd like to see him playing more, the fact that he didn't while Green and Warren were out may have been defensive game plan related, along with the ankle injury he was nursing, but he's not going to get better with his technique unless he can practice it at game speeds.

    I'm hoping that the time he's had to develop behind the big five has allowed Coaches Woicik and Nash to work on his conditioning to improve his explosiveness and stamina. I assume Pepper is all over his technique and his ability to "read" a block. NO is probably not the game to have him take a lot of reps, but if he can get a few snaps at NT (3-4 or 4-3) it would make me feel better about where he is in his development.
  24. convertedpatsfan

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    I was a bit worried about Brace too, until recently when someone else pointed out that Meriweather wasn't doing much until this season.

    We've had an amazing draft class this year, and perhaps been spoiled by the instant success of so many players.
  25. mayoclinic

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    I'm not worried at all about Brace in the long term. As someone mentioned, BJ Raji hasn't done much so far this season, either.
  26. Box_O_Rocks

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    Re: Idle thoughts.....

    I know he's admitted it, I know this season his #3 & #4 receivers have been unstable and his TEs have been used more to keep him upright. Edelman's three receptions and Stanback's one against the Jest is about right for what Gaffney saw in 2007 - especially with Welker being the hot hand. I really have no problem with the Jest game - he went to the hot hand to move the chains and he kept the defense honest by testing Revis on Moss, his numbers for Faulk and the #3/4 guys were 2007 standard.

    It's the overall season, the 2007 season, and looking back to 2006 too, that has me saying Tommy is trying to put too much onto his own shoulders and he's trying too hard to get the ball to Moss - not so much Welker who is almost always open. In 2006 he went to Watson 49 times because he was still getting comfortable with Reche and Jabar - it's cool, but he tried to force the ball to Watson in the middle of the field in the AFCCG while Evans was open and uncovered along the sideline ready to pick up yardage and stop the clock - he tried to do too much and he looked first to his "main" man. In 2007 he and Moss were chasing records and he got in the habit of looking there first to try and push that effort along - it mostly worked out okay, but it also may have developed bad habits.

    With Edelman coming back and putting forth the effort he did against the Jets we can hope Brady will look to him more often to spread the ball around. He's got 26, Gaffney had 36 in 2007 - ideal in my mind would be for Edelman to average 3/game to get him up over 40 for the season and make him a stronger threat in DC's minds. It would also be a sign that Tommy is developing the same trust he has with Moss, Welker, Watson, and Faulk - that's what we need is Tommy once again feeling he can go to any receiver to get what he needs on that play.

    Hopefully Watson and Baker can get out into the pattern more to force more honesty from the defenses. Watson is getting his "normal" touches if you look back to 2007 (36), Ben is getting 2/game in 2009. Faulk is getting his "normal" touches (3/game), Morris coming back will help there too. Maroney would be nice, but I think O'Brien is liking how LoMo is such a great play action decoy.

    The bottom line, other than Welker leading the NFL in receptions again, there are no records of note to chase. It's time to settle down and do a better job of looking to the other receivers in order to put more pressure on the defenses they face.
  27. patfanken

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    Normally I'd agree with you but Raji, etc are not doing much ON THE FIELD. Wilfolk, Merriweather, and Warren, all struggled their first year, but they did their struggling ON THE FIELD. The fact that he's not even getting on the field is what is concerning me. If he were on the field and not that impressive, I'd be less worried. We are getting very thin on the DL now, and the fact that he STILL can't get on the field isn't good.
  28. patfanken

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    Let me make it clear, I have no problem with Standback. I think that given the circumstances, he's doing an exceptional job, both on the field and during the week on scout teams. However he is what he is, which is a 4.7 former QB, who faild as a WR convert with the WR depeleted Cowboys. He's NOT a guy I want to see at WR on any regular basis.
  29. Deus Irae

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    To be fair, now that Seymour is in Oakland, Brace is backing up the one player on the line that the team can least afford not to have on the field for 1st and 2nd down. Then, when it comes to 3rd down, Brace is not exactly going to be the substitution you make against the pass. I would, though, agree that his not getting time in games where the team is flexing Wilfork out to end is a bad sign. I'd just note that rookies advance at their own pace, with some making a seamless jump and others being all but hopeless in year 1.
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2009
  30. mayoclinic

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    I would agree with this. I remember one 6th round QB who was on the practice squad most of his rookie year, and played in all of one game completing 1 of 3 passes for 6 yards and a 42.4 QB rating before becoming going on to greatness (and the SB) the following season.

    Brace isn't getting playing time right now because their are 5 guys ahead of him on the depth chart. The one game that we could have used him was when we were thinnest at DL, but that came against a team where his skill set were least likely to help us.

    He's advancing at his own pace. Give him another year to see what he has.
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