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idle thoughts - the I can't sleep edition

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by patfanken, Oct 10, 2011.

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  1. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

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    #91 Jersey

    I have a lot conflicting thoughts after this game. I hope you find at least some of them interesting.

    On the offensive side of the ball:

    1. It is clear that no other defense he has seen in the last 2 years confuses Tom Brady more than the Jets. 4 of the 5 sacks came (imho) from coverage. It wasn't like Brady didn't have time to throw the ball He had at least 2 looks on each of those 4 sacks.
    That defensive scheme and/or the players who run it, clearly cause him fits. Its by far the most indecisive we ever see Tom. (though it should be noted that he seemed to get more comfortable as the game went on.)

    Now here's the conflicting part. If it wasn't for that dropped pass by Hernandez, the Pats would have put up 37 points on a defense that drives Brady nuts. Now how f**ked up is THAT! ;)

    2. Its also clear that after Volmer gets back, Thomas Welch will be back with the practice squad.

    3. I think the offense missed have the dimension that Danny Woodhead gives it. With such Blanket coverage coverage of the other receivers, Brady didn't have a 3rd down back type to use for screens and drop downs. I hope he's back for Dallas Hard to believe that this offense can get better.

    4 Welcome back to reality Steven Ridley. A little too much east and west, and not enough north and south Stevie. I still believe in you kid, but you had to know that the NFL wasn't that easy.

    5. Think about how awesome the running game is going to be when we get Volmer back and Solder comes in as the 2nd TE

    6. For all the kudo's that BJGE is going to get all this week, the fact is that he is a very average RB in the NFL. HOWEVER he has 4 qualities that BB values. a. He rarely loses yds b. he will always get at least what is given d. He can get those tough yds around the GL and Short yardage and d. He doesn't put the ball on the ground.

    IIRC ASmith never averaged 4ypc Yet he was perfect for what BB wanted in a RB because he had those 4 qualities, even if he wasn't among the most talent backs in the league or even the division

    Its not like BB doesn't want a dynamic RB, but until he lucks into one, BJGE can provide the kind of running attack that compliments the high powered passing attack well. He's not a guy who can run for 20+ several time a year, but he's not going to risk any opportunities to get 3-6 yds in order to try and hit that home run. BB appreciates that kind of dependability

    7. I'm surprised that Welker was able to gain over 100 yds again. Even more surprised to see Branch managed 7 catches. I guess the scribes will have to postpone his football obituary for another week or two.

    And speaking of the media, I thought the Jets did a pretty good job on Welker, yet he STILL had over 100 yds receiving. I wonder at what point the media is going to start to view him as one of the top receivers in the league. NO ONE in the league, has caught more pass than Wes since 2007 and NO ONE is more a more productive WR this year. Yet Wes is rarely mentioned among the top 5 guys.

    Clearly those guys are 'anti-shortites'. and something should be done. Welker is being "short changed". Guys like Chris Carter are being very "smal minded". It seems certain people will go to "no length" to disparage Welker's accomplishment. Why isn't Mike Reiss "on top" of this?

    8. In summary: The offense allowed 5 sacks. They only had one short field. The defense provided ZERO turnovers. Brady didn't have his best night missing a couple of open receivers deep, and looking confused and indecisive at times. The OL had its worst game of the year pass blocking......and we STILL came within a dropped pass from hanging a 37 spot on defense that held the Ravens to 10. Sorry, but I still can't get over that dichotomy. Are we just spoiled? Overly critical? Or what. Head scratching isn't it. ;)

    The defensive side:

    1. If you look at the yds, 3rd down ratio, and some other stats there is certainly room to think the D showed some improvement. and they did. However they failed badly in a couple of key areas that ironically had previously been areas of accomplishment. One being Zero TO's. The other, red zone defense, where the Jets went 3 for 3.

    Remember all the positive people (including me) were touting the fact that despite all the yds given up, the points allowed in non-garbage time, was starting to improve, Well here we did well in giving up only 250 total yds, but the 21 points we gave up are too many given how few yds were allowed. Last week we gave up over 500 yds, yet only allowed 19 points, and 6 of those were in garbage time.

    2. Good thing we got back Dowling and Haynesworth.....I guess, Neither managed to show up on the stat sheet with a tackle, sack, or pass defended. In fact I asked myself all night if Dowling was even in the game. Now I understand I'm being overly critical. Both had missed a couple of weeks and both were "limited" at practice all week, so I guess I should be just grateful they made the effort they did. Still disappointed, since I was excited to see them back.

    3. Much better efforts by McCourty and Boddin this week

    4. Defense was still very vanilla this week. Rarely did they blitz, and when they did blitz, the stunt rarely freed someone up. For the most part the Pats lined up pretty much the same way every play. So while the offense has morphed into the Colts, its starting to look like the defense is starting to morph into the dreaded Jags;

    Is BB waiting for later in the season to show some creativity or at least create some of the same confusion in an opposing QB that we saw in Brady. Curious. Maybe BB will implement some stuff after the bye when everyone is healthy and have had a few games under their belt.

    5. When the Jets started to gain some traction in the run game, I thought the Pats would move into a 3-4 look but it never happened. We rarely put immediate pressure on Mangold coming off HIS injury. I thought this would be part of the strategy. I was wrong.

    6. I think Gary Guyton is a better special teamer than a full time ILB. He is a liability vs the run. I would really would like to see Fletcher get a shot at the position. Spikes was OK, but still hit the wrong hole a few times when he filled. Now giving up just 97 yds rushing, isn't a bad job. But I expected better. The Mayo gap has appeared.

    7 Ninko is VERY under rated. Very solid," do your job" kind of player

    8. James Iheadibo isn't the answer at S, but he played way above my expectations this afternoon, as Chung and he pretty much shut down Keller and minimized the possibility of big plays. Kudos to the local kid.

    Defensive Summary - Better....not good, but better, nonetheless. That wasn't a good offense, and Dallas, with all its flaws presents a much more difficult challenge and they are coming off a bye We can't count on Romo just coughing up a game to us. We just aren't that lucky.

    Special teams - Mezko had a great day punting the ball, and KO coverage sucked. I think that about covered it.

    Miscellaneous:

    1. Jet fans might be building a statue to Joe McKnight as we speak, but in reality, the credit should all go to Westhoff, his schemes, and his players' execution. The timing and blocking of almost all of the KOs was just consistently excellent. So good even an opposing fan can appreciate it.

    2. Its clear that Mark Sanchez's biggest problem is consistency. I find it hard to fathom how the QB who made their 3 scoring drives look so easy, could make those 7 three and outs look so hard. I'm just glad he's not our QB Right now he's not even the 2nd best QB in the division.

    3. I would appreciate it if anyone could tell me how I can get the MHK logo on my name plate. I should have done it earlier

    4. Stats that made be go WOW.

    a. Wes Welkers fumble of that punt was the Pats FIRST fumble of the year.
    b. Brady's pick in the red zone was the first one he'd ever thrown in Gillette during the regular season - over 300 throws

    5. The NFL network is offering he ability to stream any game after its over for $30 for the season. I'd be interested to know if anyone has that service and how they like it. It would be interesting to take another look at games

    6. Given that Revis is grabbing receivers past the 5 yd mark all the time, I found it odd the refs called that PI on him. Looked like a bad call to me.

    7. The replay was the correct call on the Branch play. When a player is down, as Branch was, the play ends the moment someone touches him. All the ball movement and the fumble itself came AFTER Branch was touched.

    8. That soft sharp keening you hear in the background are Jet fans WHINING as usual about how the refs are in the opposing team's pockets. I'd take it personally, except its the same whine EVERY week

    9. it looks like we got out of this game pretty healthy. Hopefully none of the guys we just got back aggravated any of their injuries

    OK on to the Dallas game - Beating the 2 teams I love to hate the most in consecutive weeks would make this old man a very happy one.
  2. Joker

    Joker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I just finished watching the DVR'ed version of the game. I went today.From where I was sitting in 108 I had a clear look at a block,actually a clip, in the back legs of a Patriot on McKnight's runback...on TV you can see it from the front sort of but in person it was a clear uncalled clip. Jet fan crying never takes into account the penalties THEIR team commits that never or hardly ever are called...watching Revis live, if I was a ref today, I would have flagged him at least ten times...unless grabbing and redirecting five yards past the LOS is legal now...have I missed a rule change???

    edit:..BTW thanks Ken ...now I can sleep better tonight after reading your take...I don't always agree with you but us old dogs have similar perspectives...
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2011
  3. PatriotFan77

    PatriotFan77 Rookie

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    This is as far as I got before I felt the need to reply.


    #1- That is not a "fact", just your opinion.
    #2- There are not varying degrees of average, something is either average or not.
    #3- Out of 32 teams, only 17 running backs rushed over 1,000 yards last season, Law Firm being one of them, not to mention he was second in the league in rushing TD's, despite being on a team whose QB had one of the most prolific passing seasons ever, and who had more than a 2-1 pass/ run ratio.
    #4- Green Ellis is ranked #11 currently in rush yards after 5 weeks, which is, by definition, above average out of 32 starting RB's.
  4. NinjaZX6R

    NinjaZX6R Rookie

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    Good stuff.
  5. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's great, because you not only get all of this season's games, you also get the games from 2010 and 2009.
  6. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    BJGE started the season with 5 OL who were former Pro Bowlers or All-Pros, and a passing offense that induces opponents to play pass-first. That all can help an RB ...
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2011
  7. Patspsycho

    Patspsycho Rookie

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    You're wrong. We had four former/current pro-bowlers/all-pros to start with (Light, Mankins, Koppen, Waters, Solder) then went to three: (Light, Mankins, Connolly, Waters, and Solder). Right now there's 1 current and 2 former, one "rookie" NT, and rookie RT.

    Maroney, Taylor, Morris, and Jordan ran behind lines with more pro-bowlers than what BJGE has now.
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2011
  8. PatriotFan77

    PatriotFan77 Rookie

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    No, not 17th out of 32, there were only 17 RB's that went over 1,000yds last year. How many RB's are in the league, 65-75? With 13 TD's to go with it, which was 2nd only to Arian Foster who had 100 more carries. All on approx 225 carries vs. Brady's nearly 500+ pass attempts. And he is on pace to do better currently this season, I would hardly call that "very average". I certainly wouldn't call him great but he's above average and the stats bear that out.
  9. Metaphors

    Metaphors Rookie

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    - Opposing QBs still have not taken a single snap this year with the lead.

    - This game was much more of an indictment against the Jets than a big success for the Pats. Sanchez didn't implode and the Jets got a good effort on special teams. The Pats left a number of points on the field, generally played a vanilla defense and made a number of mistakes (penalties, missed assignements, etc). Pretty much an ideal storyline for the Jets. Rex has to be busy power-snacking to make himself forget that his team is a Romogeddon from being cooked. As it is, they are currently sitting in the #12 spot in the AFC playoff race.

    - Price and Dowling didn't play. Vereen only saw the field on special teams. That is a lot of talent that hasn't been unwrapped yet.

    - Kyle Love wasn't spectacular in this game, but he absolutely did his job. Allowed Wilfork to come off the field at times (his snap count needs to come way down) and also allowed Wilfork to play all over the line. Underappreciated effort.

    - Spikes had a Jeckyll and Hyde game. When the Jets were running well in their first 2 TD drives (Greene got more than half his yards), it was usually Spikes in the wrong gap getting caught up in the wash. Otherwise Spikes did a solid job plugging the middle and not allowing clean gaps for the Jets to hit.

    - The Pats defense faced two 3rd quarter drives only up 3 points. Sanchez 1-3 for 4 yards. Total game time for those 2 drives (meaning rest for the Jets defense) = 3 minutes. Pats next 3 drives = 30 plays, 155 yds, 11 first downs and 13 points. Jets defense had nothing left.

    - The stats say that Brady has thrown 6 picks this year. Would be maddening for most players. Luckily Brady cares more about the numbers on the "Standings" section of nfl.com.

    - Since I still believe that the only thing stopping this team from reaching its potential is injuries, this game looks to be positive on that front as well. Outside of a Haynesworth cramp and Slater getting dinged up a little, looks like a pretty clean bill of health.
  10. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #51 Jersey

    I stopped reading after the Green-Ellis comment.
  11. randomk1

    randomk1 Rookie

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    The Ninkovich part deserves mentioning. Aside from Mayo i think he has been our most consistent linebacker all year.
  12. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Good post...

    Just because someone from the D side does not show up on the stat sheet does not mean they did or did not play well.

    Thought Spikes and Guyton played better than expected.

    There always seems to be an underlying theme that BJGE is not flashy enough or good enough, imo there is nothing do not like about him. Probably will never make sexy long runs, but what is not to like about a kid who smiles all the time, hits the hole, does not dance, pushes the pile, has a nose for the endzone and never fumbles.
  13. randomk1

    randomk1 Rookie

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    Meh...when you have a high powered passing attack that's all you need. A guy that can keep the chains moving and doesn't make a mistake. And that last drive to run down the clock was absolutely beautiful. The Jests needed a stop and they couldn't do a thing about it.
  14. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

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    #91 Jersey

    Don't get your panties in an uproar. No it is a fact that BJGE is never going to be a RB who can generate big plays, or who has a lot of physical "talent" The point of my observation was NOT to be negative about him. Quite the opposite. The point was to say that DESPITE the lack of physical talent (of course that's relative to the NFL) he has 4 other qualities that make him an asset to the Pats offense.

    But it should also be clear that that he's not even the most talented RB on his own team, Ridlley is clearly a more explosive runner, and and as he develops and proves that he can pass block and not fumble, he will surely start to take snaps away from Bennie
  15. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

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    #91 Jersey

    That's a shame, ausie, because you missed the parts where I was genuinely perceptive, and another part where I was witty and funny. So much lost because you simply disagreed with just one of many comments. ;)
  16. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    How do we know that Ridley is more talented than BJGE?? Even if he is he can have all the talent in the world and not be a good NFL back. Think Ridley has a tremendous upside, but yesterday he did not show me a whole lot.

    BJGE has shown this for two seasons now.. and he does his "job" well.

    This team and every team has very talented players, who cannot adapt to the NFL....
  17. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

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    #91 Jersey

    its probably nitpicking but didn't the Raiders lead 7-3 for a drive in the Oakland game. But I get your point

    exactly. It sort of looked ugly at times, but despite all that, we always seemed to be in control of the game.. However, it was hard NOT to think about the Alge drop in the playoff game, after Hernandez missed that opportunity.
    [/QUOTE]
    Price and Dowling didn't play. Vereen only saw the field on special teams. That is a lot of talent that hasn't been unwrapped yet.
  18. betterthanthealternative

    betterthanthealternative Rookie

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    I agree with most of the original post, and as usual appreciate the effort Ken.

    A couple of others:

    -Line play kept the Jets in the game. Both our OL and DL got beat more often than they had been up to now. Who woulda' thunk it? Mankins in particular seemed to have guys leaking into the backfield. And Welch, but that's another matter. Or maybe it was angles that come from better schemes from the Jets and not individual players.

    -It is remarkable how the Jets seem to take away the things we do so well against everyone else: win the special teams and turnover battles. This had all the makings of a much larger win for the Pats.

    So given the emergence of the running game, the passing defense maybe beginning to tighten up a bit, the uncharacteristic mistakes, and the lack of turnovers, I come out of this game optimistic about the team.
  19. goheels22002

    goheels22002 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Great post. It is why the rest of us can sleep after watching a Pats game. We know you'll be up all night harvesting our dreams for all the good ideas.

    I have one more for you to mull over: What is the rule on wedges in the kickoff game?

    The Jets routinely had four or five guys side-by-side holding hands like 4th-grade girls playing ring-around-the-rosie as the returner started upfield. I thought wedges were against the rules on kickoffs and punts because Commissioner Goodell sucked so bad at ring-around-the-rosie as a kid.

    Shouldn't there have been a flag on McKnight's return?
  20. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #51 Jersey

    It's not that ken, generally you post thought provoking comment that merits attention. Whilst I'm certain it wasn't your intention to "slight" Green-Ellis, calling the guy average just isn't a good enough representation of his performances for the Patriots.
  21. BlueThunder

    BlueThunder Rookie

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    #87 Jersey

    I did notice a semi wedge where 2 guys were holding hands......but then I realized that's just the way the Jet players swing :p
  22. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Disable Jersey

    Westhoff disguised his "wedge" well in the big return. Two guys holding hands and the 3rd just off them. Within the rules and well planned and executed.

    Guys DO have a couple weeks to practice with the team coming off PUP so that they can be evaluated as recovered and get their timing back. Decisions to be made.

    Maybe it's just me but I feel comforted seeing the ball in BJGE's hands.
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2011
  23. Kulko

    Kulko Rookie

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    Fully Agree with BB here. BJGE is a very good back because of just this ability. He may not be elite, but he is what a team needs to win Superbowls.
    I mean when the Jets knew that only runs where comming, he went up there throat for 50 yds in 8 yd chunks, needing just one or wo supporting passes from TFB.
    Totally Agreed
    Well I prefer yesterdays defense by a lot. 3 instances is too small a sample size to be concerned about red zone Defense yet, when it has been working good all year.
    And the Jets where just so horrible at throwing, that there were no chances for turnovers.
    Given the minimal chances a CB in this league has, to do his job, I am very pleased with both of them yesterday. Plus DMC ran down MC Knight from behind on that KO return.
    I dont saw the necessarity to switch whats been mostly working. They had one or two drives where they could run, and then we tweaked the defense and were back to 1 yd and a cloud of dust.
    Well I dont know if he does it all the time, but it was a very obvious call. He blatantly held and interfered all the way up to the second white line, which should be 10 yds past the line of scrimmage. And forget about the inidental tripping BS that the commentators saw, He just pushed him.
    Horray for that one.
  24. Kulko

    Kulko Rookie

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    Just checked it, they didnt. Whenever they had a lead we scored back immediately.
  25. borg

    borg Rookie

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    Random thoughts:

    1) Pats running left....whoever BB was targeting on the right side of the Jets D line has to be worried that fat Rex is about to ask him to bring his playbook into a private meeting. The Pats ran left early with limited success...and I started to get pissed....ah....but what do I know...because that meat was being tenderized for a 4th quarter feast...and it was delicious

    2a) The Jets WRs complain about their O during the week, then proceed to drop balls on the first two series forcing punts. Pats D was handed those first 2 three and outs on a platter. This game could have gone in a different direction very easily

    2b) WTF was Tannenbaum thinking taking Plaxico over Braylon Edwards? Plax and his hands.....nothing has changed since jail. P.S....that sideline catch /overturned call should have been called inconclusive.....and a catch IMO.

    3) Welker going for that short punt reminded me of a certain Sox left fielder...Now Wes knows what contract he compares best to :)

    4) Can the Pats hire whoever scouts Jets' DBs?

    5) Points against...Pats have given up fewer points than the vaunted Jets...by 1 point

    6) Great white north....Buffalo's secondary feasted off another QB...Do not ignore the team behind the curtain

    7) BJGE...M o a M...Man on a Mission. The total commitment Ben showed on every play was impressive. He followed his lead blocked then launched his body through gaps...total commitment. A shining example of team ball and unselfishness. Good stuff. BJGE earns unlimited whirlpool visits this week

    8) Hernandez looked a little chunky out their...or was that me

    9) I thought Ghost could kick it through the endzone? Anyone see Janikowski yesterday. Raiders just let their guy tee it up from 50+ all day.

    10) A common theme from Jets fans over the past few weeks....DEPTH. The Jets are thin at O line, RB, WR, TE. Depth is their achilles now and through the rest of the season. Of course the Jets fans blame their OC instead of the roster make up....have at it JEST fans
  26. patsfaninpittsburgh

    patsfaninpittsburgh Banned

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    ken

    "3 and outs" and turnovers are not correlated. Of all the INT's this year, only one came a "three and out".

    During the course of a drive, there are more plays. More plays mean more chances for the offense to screw up.

    Six of the INT's this year, came deep into the drive.

    If you want "three and outs", expect less turnovers because the punt is actually a turnover.

    How this works should be a function of the opponent.

    As a mentioned earlier, I think the San Diego game has been the best defensive effort.

    Eliminate Gates
    Zero big plays
    Make the gaff prone Rivers prone some gaffs.

    This site should not get into the habit about getting mad about yardage and third down conversions and claim we "luck" into turnovers; then with "3 and outs" lament about turnovers.
  27. Don Kipines

    Don Kipines Rookie

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    Just a couple of things -- Dowling didn't play, but Haynesworth did and I thought he did some good things. He stood up Brandon Moore a few times and forced Greene to cut back two or three times. It wasn't anything big, but he did okay.

    On the blitzes, I'll have to go back and look, but it seemed to me they came with more than a few. They sent at least a couple of corner blitzes (McCourty didn't get there, Arrington did) and they had Ninkovitch blitzing inside on the Holmes touchdown.

    I thought the Pats did a lot of good things on defense yesterday. Good solid tackling for most of the day -- they didn't give up really any extra yards. No big gashes in the running game. A bunch of 0-2 yard runs, putting the Jets in third downs and second-and-longs. The DL play looked better and I also liked Ihedigbo, who hit some guys and gave them more than Barrett has been giving them.

    It's not the best formula for winning, because they're still going to need 25-30 points on offense to win every week, but they're slowly tightening things up on D.
  28. goheels22002

    goheels22002 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    This was the most solid defensive performance yet. The Jets were forced to fight for what little yardage they got and the tackling was superb all day long. This was the most unremarkable performance by the Jets against the Pats of the past few years - a credit to a defense that kept everything in front of them. When the Jets had opportunities to come up with plays or a drive to take the lead, they were met with stout Patriots run defense and excellent tackling inside the sticks.
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2011
  29. Triumph

    Triumph Rookie

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    Really? You can tell all that just by watching Ridley on a dozen or so carries?

    People are always writing off BJGE but he is money. Never has fumbled.
  30. ForThoseAboutToRock

    ForThoseAboutToRock Rookie

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    I guess I can't help but feel that if BJGE were a 1st or 2nd round pick, he'd have way more support than he seems to around these parts.

    From last season to today, the man has 18 TD's. Using that same comparison:

    Adrian Peterson: 19 TD's ( 1 rec.)
    Fred Jackson: 12 TD (2 rec.)
    Matt Forte: 11 TD (4 rec.)
    LeSean McCoy: 16 TD (4 rec.)
    MJD: 9 TD (2 rec)
    Darren McFadden: 14TD (4 rec.)
    Arian Foster: 19 TD ( 1 rec.)
    Peyton Hillis: 15 TD (2 rec.)
    Chris Johnson: 13 TD (1 rec)
    Michael Turner: 16 TD
    Jamaal Charles: 8 TD (4 rec)

    Also, Benjarvus does. not. fumble. Obviously, using 1 stat to compare him to the rest of the league doesn't do everyone a ton of good, but when you look at the fact that he scores plenty of TD's, and doesn't cough the ball up - what's not to like? He also runs hard, hits holes, doesn't tend to get caught for negative yardage, and I personally was very reminded of clock killin Corey Dillion in closing out that win yesterday.

    Also, it really seems that his teammates are consistently effusive in their praise for his play and even more so for his attitude and work ethic. I hope in a few years we look back on him as the Troy Brown, Kevin Faulk, Tedy Bruschi, Tom Brady type Patriots that just brought it every single day. Us fans love those guys.
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