Welcome to PatsFans.com

Idle thoughts...focus on the CBA

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by patfanken, Oct 23, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. patfanken

    patfanken Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    5,840
    Likes Received:
    551
    Ratings:
    +927 / 18 / -11

    #91 Jersey

    Yeah, I know. I have drunk the kool aid. I know all the cliches. And I have been one who has consistently preached the fact that the physical talent gap between ALL NFL teams is really quite minimal. (except at QB) All that being said, I CAN'T for the life of me muster up any interest in the upcoming game....apart for the curiosity factor of it being played in a foreign country. So for this reason don't be surprised when you don't find much in this post concerning the Bucs game. Frankly, if they win (and they will), all I care about is getting 45 guys back to Boston HEALTHY.

    1. Since I'm not thinking about this game, my mind wondered over to the upcoming CBA, and what it will take for there NOT to be a lock out....or a cap free year. Obviously there will have to be concessions on both sides, but IMHO there seems to be enough room on both sides for there to be some accord. Here are a few ideas.

    a. Few would argue that there has to be a rookie salary cap. As it stands now, having a pick in the top 10 is almost a detriment. For a guy who was once hoping to land a $15,000 NFL contract, it seems rather obscene to see 3rd round picks signing multimillion dollar contacts without playing a down.

    You would think that the union would love this idea.....IF they get assurances that the money saved in idiotic rookie contracts will be spent on those players who have PROVEN themselves to be NFL Players.

    So as a concession for instituting a realistic rookie salary structure, the union should get the following. An increase in the salary cap MINIMUM (say 5-10%) An increase in the roster size (2-3 players) An increase in the vet minimum, and an increase in the amount of the vet minimum discount.

    BOTTOM LINE - The owns get control and don't have to overpay for unproven talent...at least early on. The union get more jobs, the knowledge that the minimum spent on salaries will be going up. That there will be NO decrease in the amount of money that will be spent on salaries, only THAT money will be going to proven vets, not untried rookies. And it will make more sense to keep solid veteran players longer.

    Sounds like a win for the union to me.

    Here's what the union will have to give up. First their ill advised attempt to demand that they have full access to the owners books. This is absurd. They ALLREADY have full access to the revenue streams that are being directed toward player salaries as denoted by the current CBA. (TV, ticket sales, Merchandizing, etc) If I were an owner I wouldn't want anyone screwing around my books, especially since I probably have several other similar or dissimilar companies that are NONE of the players business..

    I don't understand what the problem is. Since the cap system was instituted, salaries have quadrupled, contrary to the union's initial fears that the cap will limit their future earnings. Players income has EXPLODED during this period. EVERYONE is making a ton of money. If the union continues forget that the league was build and made successful BECAUSE the owners and players have cooperated, they will kill the golden goose....kill it DEAD. Why then is the union seemingly playing a potentially lethal game of chicken with the owners on this, IMHO, trivial issue.

    Don't they understand that in a atmosphere of a shrinking economy, and economic hardship by the very public who pays the bills, crying poor mouth for vet players who make a MINIMUM yearly salary that would take the average person almost TWO DECADES to accumulate; would NOT resonate well.

    Listen, I'm a died in the wool liberal on social issues....and I don't trust large multinational companies as far as I can throw their lawyers. However, unless you bought a team pre 1980, you have had to invest HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars to gain entry to this league, and have had to commit millions more in capital expenditures every year. There is a heavy risk involved, just look at what many smart people thought about Kraft's $187MM back in '93...including his wife. ;). Professional sports teams are losing money hand over fist now. IIRC the Sox who sell out EVERY game...at the highest ticket cost in the league, don't see a profit until or unless they get to the playoffs....and THAT's one of the best run franchises in league. Same goes for the Celts.

    The NFL is the current exception to that rule, most teams ARE profitable, but that can change in a hurry, especially when now, when the owners start up costs are so high. IIRC it cost the Houston owner something like $700MM just to join the club....THEN he had the capital costs of running a team.

    Instead on trying to squeeze the last dime out of owners, the union (and a rich guys club would be a better name for it) SHOULD be more concerned with player safety, the pension, the health of retired vets, AND the the GENERAL health of the league that pays the bills.

    On the owners side, they better get their sh!t together as well. The fact is that some owners (ie Kraft, Jones, Snyder, etc) do a better job at marketing their franchises than others (Adams, Brown, Wilson, etc). Some of it has to do with the size of the local market, but not all of it. The Pats have SAME demographic NOW than it had in 1990 when they were LAST the league in cash generated. Now the Pats are among the league leaders in market generated cash. Why, because they are better and smarter at it than the rest. They also invest more assets than most.

    Somehow the owners have come an agreement to continue to operate in a cooperative environment. That have to CONTINUE to support the weaker franchises, while at the same time institute ways to force/encourage them to pull their weight better (this would be a good time to add some suggestions on how the league can do that.) If on one side, Jerry Jones of the league get their way, or on the other, the Mike Brown's get their way, NOTHING good will come of it. This is a critical time of the league...I just hope they don't f**k it up.

    Well hopefully this will spark some lively discussion. I'm interested hearing some other ideas of how this CBA can come to pass...or why it won't. ;)

    2. I really am getting behind the idea of having a 17 game schedule with one game every year played on a neutral site....and it doesn't have to be an overseas venue. There are plenty of cities in the US who would get behind having one game a year in there town. Just for example Birmingham, Portland, Las Vegas, San Antonio, Oklahoma City, and other areas where big football stadiums are available.

    It will eliminate one of the hated preseason games, as well as market the sport DIRECTLY to other areas of the country and the world. If implemented the league WOULD have to find 16 venues each year, but I really don't think that's a problem.

    3. I've said it before, and I'll probably keep saying it, but the general level of tackling fundamentals is going down faster than Ron Borges' credibility. The reason why so many tackles are being missed is the fact that the players are tackling with their HEADS DOWN. You can't hit what you can't see. Not only does it lead to poor tackling, it leads to more injuries.

    I STILL wake up in the middle of the night shuddering to the remembrance of the HS game, when I had a guy lined up on the sideline..... lowered my head in my best Brandon Merriweather imitation....missed him.... and landed at the feet of my coach. The fact that he didn't have to say anything spoke VOLUMES. He taught me how to tackle. He knew I knew the right way to do it. He didn't have to say anything to me (though I still bear the scars from his glare ;) )....and I was a HS senior. You'd think that by the time they get to the pros, they'd have it down.

    Yes I know that 190 lb DB trying to tackle 230 lb RBs can't just meet them high all the time, BUT you CAN keep your head up, and you neck and spine in the safest alignment.

    I'd love to talk to BB about that issue. I'd bet he'd have a ton to say. It would be a good one for his radio talk.

    4. I tell you what. This season HAS been one of transition for the Pats. They are slowly reloading with barely a ripple in the bottom line, Lets give credit to a couple of people. First Flyodd Reece. He had a lot of good drafts while at TENN. Its no coincidence that we've had one of the better drafts we've had now that he's been in charge of that aspect of the team.

    I also want to compliment BB....in a back handed way. I can't remember a time when we have made SO many personel moves that have FAILED. Galloway, Lewis, Smith, Matthews, come off the top of my head. Feel free to discuss thw why's and wherefores. But what I HAVE liked is the fact that BB, when he makes a mistake, either in FA or in the Draft, doesn't dwell on it. If the guy can't play here, he's gone. Plan and simple. BB takes the heat (or doesn't some will say) and move on. Its a GREAT attribute, and one that will keep the Pat competitive, long after other teams slip into a down cycle.

    5. Has there ever been a more disappointing franchise than the Chargers. No team has done LESS with more talent than they have, especially since that division is so weak. They have to blow that thing up. Keep the QB, and start over.

    6. Things to look for in this game...because it still has some things I want to see.

    a. How will AD respond
    b. Moroney...will the resurrection continue?
    c. Volmer...is he the newest instant all pro ?
    d. Who will be the 4 WRs this week?
    e. What quarter Hoyer gets in?

    OK that's what's on MY mind, what's on yours?
     
  2. farn

    farn 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2009
    Messages:
    1,796
    Likes Received:
    16
    Ratings:
    +40 / 2 / -0

    Re: Idle thoughts....focus on the CBA

    I worry about the CBA for two main reasons :

    1. It could lead to an NFL stoppage.
    2. The cap is a huge BB advantage, because he wastes money at a lower clip than most other teams.

    I also wonder how AD and Maroney will respond - though I wonder if I'll be convinced in London if they light it up... I think we'll know more vs Miami & (especially) Indy.

    Not a fan of the 17 games... teams can hardly field enough quality for 16 without losing key dudes.

    Here's yet another point :

    Anyone else worried about the 53 ? It's OK to stash away Fred Taylor for a while when others are healthy... how long can you go with Edelman, Taylor, and others on the 53 (instead of IR) when people are going down ? Eventually, there needs to be a tipping point - unless some of the wounded are coming back earlier than I suspect "à la Mayo".
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2009
  3. robertweathers

    robertweathers Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2006
    Messages:
    7,819
    Likes Received:
    22
    Ratings:
    +76 / 3 / -1

    Re: Idle thoughts....focus on the CBA

    I thought Reese owned the cap and Caserio owned pro & college personel?

    At least in 08 and 09, they haven't missed big on FAs...Big would be AD.
     
  4. JSn

    JSn Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2008
    Messages:
    7,449
    Likes Received:
    32
    Ratings:
    +33 / 0 / -0

    Re: Idle thoughts....focus on the CBA

    My suspicion is that they'll either IR one of Morris or Taylor only if it becomes DIRE. We still have expendable players on the 53 (Lockett comes screaming to mind) if we need to clear space. I'm pretty sure we'll see a WR activated this week, but if they activated Nunn, Tate AND Levoir, we'd only be one guy too many. I also think a magical ouchie could be in the cards for Rich Ohrnberger. He seems like a spare part this year, but one we need to keep around.

    I think you want to have Light, Taylor and Morris in the stretch run if at all possible.
     
  5. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2005
    Messages:
    23,918
    Likes Received:
    739
    Ratings:
    +2,071 / 20 / -13

    Disable Jersey

    Re: Idle thoughts....focus on the CBA

    Increasing the vet minimum discount as mentioned is good for the fans and good marketing. I can't stand sports like MLB where nearly all vets who win trophies for you can be relied upon to leave.

    Pay the vets more to compensate for less $ for the rookies. Sadly, resistance to this sanity comes from the faux 'pride' of geting big #s for #1 draft picks. The same idiocy that makes a Ty Law sign with the Jets for virtually the same money, with more likelihood of actually geting it, had he re-signed with the Pats.
     
  6. BelizePats

    BelizePats Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Messages:
    900
    Likes Received:
    18
    Ratings:
    +36 / 0 / -0

    Re: Idle thoughts....focus on the CBA

    Great post Ken! This is why I come here day after day. Posts like this one.

    I find it really interesting the extent of how weak the NFL PA actually is. And quite frankly, I don't have a lot of respect for this entity as a group. The way this body has consistently treated (read ignored) its older vets that played long before massive TV deals and fat front end loaded contracts, absolutely sickens me. And it tells me all I need to know.

    The players work for the owners. The owners sign the checks. Can you think of any other business where the employees demand to see the owners books? Its beyond absurd.

    The NFL PA is completely weak and rudderless. If they are dumb enough to force a strike, so be it. They'll eventually cave like they always do, regardless of size of their "war chest".

    It appalls me that I'd ever come down on the side of 32 white Billionaires, which has to be one of my least favorite constituencies, EVER!!! But that just goes to show you how far from reality the NFL PA has become over the last 25 years.

    Your ideas for how to apply the rookie salary cap savings to those already in the league are excellent.
     
  7. Synovia

    Synovia In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    3,922
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    Thats because the entire New England Sports corporation (or whatever the hell the name of the parent company is) is designed to funnel money away from the Red Sox and into its other companies so as to avoid revenue sharing. The Sox make PLENTY of money every year.


    As to raising the NFL minimum cap, isn't it already like 90% of the cap? If you make it higher, it makes it almost impossible for teams to maneuver big contracts.
     
  8. JSn

    JSn Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2008
    Messages:
    7,449
    Likes Received:
    32
    Ratings:
    +33 / 0 / -0

    I think it's 85%, but I agree, there needs to be that bit of wiggle room.
     
  9. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2007
    Messages:
    17,665
    Likes Received:
    344
    Ratings:
    +1,121 / 17 / -4

    #12 Jersey

    100% agree on pretty much every point (against raising the vet minimum, though). Great points, ken.
     
  10. MVPatsfan13

    MVPatsfan13 Practice Squad Player

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2009
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    To the OP:
    I dont hate preseason games, actually like them. How else would we have tempered our expectations for Chung or increased them for Edelman, or mabye BJGE wouldnt make the team(and we clearly need him now).
    I think that these guys can tackle just fine. I feel this feeling of poor-tackling is leftover from last year.

    Good idle thoughts though, nice post
     
  11. italia44

    italia44 In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,287
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Re: Idle thoughts....focus on the CBA

    I was with you until you decided to boost your liberal cred by using the descriptive:"white billiionaires"..............race-baiting,by any color,is appalling to me.(see the murders of white landowners in S Africa).

    Getting back on point.........the NFLPA is not rudderless.Not if you watched Executive Director,
    DeMaurice Smith on Showtime's Inside the NFL.Smith is a confidant of President Obama and has been meetting(clandestingly) with democrat leaders regarding going after the owners for anti-trust violations..........The NFLPA will not strike,but will do anything to destroy a possible lockout.

    The NFLPA is after guaranteed contracts,now.......leading up to total free agency.They will only agree to a rookie salary cap in 2011,if they have a say in where the savings go.I believe they control about 60% of revenues,today,and want more with a new agreement.They won't make a new deal unless the owners agree to open the books to the NFLPA and probably some government oversight.We all know how THAT is working out with the bailed-out banks on Wall Street.

    No competitive business in this country can allow this,so,a "lockout",is likely.In an uncapped year,the draft and free agency,will be a "zoo".next year.........It's not going to be pretty, in a worsening economy,for fans,either.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2009
  12. BelizePats

    BelizePats Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Messages:
    900
    Likes Received:
    18
    Ratings:
    +36 / 0 / -0

    I have no liberal cred that I am aware of. But, I should not have include the reference to "White Billionaires". My apologies!
     
  13. Snarf

    Snarf Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    783
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -1

    Re: Idle thoughts....focus on the CBA

    But if they were black it would be ok? What point, precisely, are you trying to make here by inserting race into it?

    [ edit: just saw apology above -- thanks for rethinking that. ]
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2009
  14. farn

    farn 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2009
    Messages:
    1,796
    Likes Received:
    16
    Ratings:
    +40 / 2 / -0

    Re: Idle thoughts....focus on the CBA

    All billionaires are cool - all colors, all religions, yeah billionaires ! They have a lot of money... but they need it : they SPEND a lot of money (isn't that pretty much what Patrick Ewing told us a bball strike ago ?).

    They buy teams for us to watch, they buy companies for us to get ripped off by... what CAN'T they do ?

    I love you billionaires... I love you.
     
  15. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2005
    Messages:
    21,137
    Likes Received:
    358
    Ratings:
    +964 / 17 / -8

    #3 Jersey

    FWIW, I think that should there be no new CBA, whichever side "attacks" first will lose the battle for public opinion. To borrow from patfanken, I don't think either side will gain much sympathy playing the "Woe is me!" card.

    Also, on another level, it's worth noting that the players don't really understand the salary cap system, or the concept of the rookie cap all that well. Most of them will never see even $2M a year, let alone the $50M+ contracts that the top rookies are getting. And yet it doesn't occur to them that if the rookie salaries are limited, it means more money for the veterans who've earned their keep.
     
  16. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2005
    Messages:
    19,949
    Likes Received:
    29
    Ratings:
    +29 / 0 / -0

    Adding a regular season game will require all players getting an across the board increase since while they are paid for the preseason it's at merely a stipend rate. Injuries will increase and fewer late round and UDFA players will ever make squads because of the lack of time to evaluate them at remotely NFL game speed. I know you don't believe that can't be replicated in practices and scrimmages but Bill disagrees and I tend to put more stock in his opinion... If owners have to absorb epanded rosters and PS their enthusiasm for the expanded season will falter.

    The NFL has saturated the US market. They aren't interested in neutral venues in this country, they are after the bazillion dollar worldwide markets and international TV deals.


    Floyd Reese has nothing to do with personnel decisions. He was brought in as a special assistant to handle contracts because after losing Dimetroff to Atlanta in 2008 Caserio wasn't quite ready to take on the pseudo GM duties Pioli handled. The few veteran players Floyd's recommended haven't panned out...Nick Caserio is the Director of Player Personnel and oversees the FA and College evaluation and selection process. Why is it you find it so easy to credit someone else who has nothing to do with it for this years draft while backhanded complimenting Bill for FA failures... It's all Bill's decision. And he's had just as many clunkers before, fans just have short memories...No one expects every draft or FA selection to pan out, just enough of them to.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2009
  17. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2007
    Messages:
    17,665
    Likes Received:
    344
    Ratings:
    +1,121 / 17 / -4

    #12 Jersey

    That's definitely true- if there is a move to a 17 game season, I would think that the point would be for *most* neutral-site games to be international, and just have them staggered so that they always lead into the team's bye week.
     
  18. goldspeed101

    goldspeed101 Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2008
    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    If the season is increased this is what I see needs to happen
    1. Contracts obviously increased
    2. Roster size Increased
    3. with more games= more injuries, there needs to be like a 4 week injured reserve
     
  19. alamo

    alamo praedica numerum! PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,378
    Likes Received:
    26
    Ratings:
    +52 / 0 / -0

    85% is already pretty high. The league is negotiating from a "we don't really want or need the cap anymore" position whereas the union probably wants the cap floor more than they admit. And the vet minimums are already pretty healthy. There will be some tweaking but I doubt the league has to give up much on this particular issue. The number one beneficiaries over time of the current rookie system are the top agents, not the majority of players, and if the players realize this change will be easy.

    For probably the same reason that Upshaw near the end was getting criticized even though he had done a fabulous job for his players. There is a mindset among many that if a union doesn't use its power to extract every last penny, it is hurting itself and unions in general. The NFL history seems to indicate that isn't always true.

    You completely skipped Los Angeles, possibly because they seem to be on a path to a new stadium. But until when (if) a franchise moves there LA probably will get 8 dates a year of the 16 additional games if a 17th week is added.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>