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idle thoughts...500 reasons....


I'm not sure about your reasoning and I'm not sure you understand the situation very well.

Talk about pot to kettle...I'm not sure you comprehend the basic written word...

The players had nothing to do with causing this latest round of labor unrest. Pure and simple, this is the owners collectively deciding that they want more money. There are no major issues about player rights or anything like that. If the league was pulling in $10 billion a year before, and it's now pulling in $11 billion, the owners want 100% of that money -- they don't want to share even a penny of it. Essentially, they are asking to retain 100% of all the league's growth. Which is unreasonable and defies the whole concept of "partnership" that you are talking about.

The NFLPA made a power play in 2006 because the owners were squabbling over their own formula for shared revenue. The union demanded they retain essentially the same split of a larger pie that was the result of shifting from Designated Gross Revenue (which did not include roughly $2B in revenue from club and luxury box seating, gate receipts, parking, concessions, signage, naming rights, local radio deals, etc.) to Total Gross Revenue (all revenue less $1B in cost credits). As a result the cap which had been increasing incrementally by 5-6% per year emploded from $85M in 2005 to $128M by 2009. Meanwhile revenues also began to flatten in part due to the recession. The league is not asking to retain 100% of growth. They are asking to retain at best the same % they were retaining back in 2006. Whether they achieve that via excluding the same $1B they lost exclusion of in 2006 or by lowering the % to reflect it's inclusion.

Another example of the owners' attempts to skirt the partnership is this hoarding of TV revenue in advance of the lockout. The owners essentially volunteered to earn less from the networks in the last few years in exchange for a promise that the networks would lend them $4 billion during any lockout. This is an outrageous violation of the CBA; what it means is that the owners stole roughly $2.4 billion from the players.

The players are entitled to 60% of all revenue, but the league gave the networks a "discount" and basically asked them to bank that $4 billion, i.e. keep it out of the league kitty so that it couldn't be divvied up as per the CBA. Had that money been paid in the usual way, the owners would only have received $1.6 billion of it. Now they're keeping all of it, or at least they would have, had a judge not intervened.

That wasn't just taking money improperly, it was also a blatantly unfair labor practice, in the sense that it both took money the players could have used to save up during the lockout and also gave the owners a war chest they could live on in the event of a work stoppage.

The whole thing was an Enron-style accounting tactic. The owners were keeping funds that they actually controlled (i.e. the $4 billion) off their books so that their "partners" (the players) couldn't access it. And the amazing thing is that the players didn't even complain about it until now. They weren't going after that money; they were happy to keep playing under the existing CBA. But even absconding with that much money wasn't enough for the owners. They're still trying to opt out of the deal in order to guarantee that they get another billion dollars of new revenue all to themselves.

That money was never going into escrow unless their was a work stoppage, and it always had to be paid back either with interest or in kind (with games). The real difference was that in earlier deals that money either would not have been paid at all or would have been refundable within the league year if it was, while under the new agreements it could be made up over the course of the remaining term of the TV agreements. The owners were never going to be able to access more than their share of the money. The players simple were precluded from accessing their share until a new league year and games they always have had to play in order to access their portion of it commenced.

The owners have just under a billion in funds apart from the 2011 TV money that they can access to get them through a first year lockout according to Standard and Poor and the Sports Business Journal. The $1.4B from the 2011 TV deals would have only been tapped if a lockout extended beyond 2011. There is a reason 78% of players are in financial distress if not bankrupt 2 year after their careers end, while owners don't seem to have that problem.


If the owners don't blink today, they're fools, because once this gets into the courts, they're not only going to lose their argument for control of new revenue, they're going to have to pay damages for the hidden TV revenue and give up a lot of rights they currently enjoy. Almost guaranteed, if it gets before this current judge, the owners will lose the franchise tag, and who knows, they may even lose the salary cap or their entire antitrust exemption. Which will suck for the fans.

This judge helped construct the CBA in 1993 that included the franchise tag that has already withstood court challenge when it was first implemented as part of that CBA. And contraty to fan opinion the union has never really cared about it since it affects so few players per season. If they lose the salary cap it may suck more for the players since they will also lose the salary floor... And if they lose their entire anti trust exemption that too will suck for the majority of players not to mention the implication for every other league... Going to court doesn't mean the court will pre-empt them from collectively bargaining any of those things into a new CBA though, which is exactly what transpired last time. The CBA of 1993 settled all those cases after 6 years of the league operating on their own work rules. In fact the union will have a problem if they decertify today in that according to sources it's highly unlikely they will be granted two injunctions by the same judge on the same labor matters simultaneously (injunction against the league accessing the TV funds and injunction against a lockout...).

From what I understand the players are willing to give up some of what they got in the last CBA, but this thing isn't going to get done because a certain clique of owners won't budge at all -- and if it gets to the courts, we'll not only have a work stoppage but the new version of the NFL won't have a franchise tag and fans in small-market cities like Indy and Minnesota will have to live in dread of losing the Mannings and Petersons to, well, the Jets. I don't see how the fact that there are a lot of free agents about to hit the market makes this any more the union's fault than it was, and it was never really the union's fault at all.

I haven't seen any evidence the union is willing to give up anything they got in the last CBA. The union sold out those FA for a shot at the uncapped season they claimed would be a panacea when they agreed to the opt out language in the 2006 CBA that allowed either side to opt out of the deal after just 2 years if in fact it wasn't working for them, only with the 6 year FA and 30% rules under an expiring CBA that panacea didn't pan out. As a result there are currently almost 500 players poised to hit FA when a FA period may not occur until late in the game in 2011 if at all...and 74 players due bonus money this month that they won't see now until or unless there is a new league year...

There is plenty of blame to go around, but the union made a power grab in a power vacuum the owners foolishly created and now the players and the fans are the ones most likely to pay for both of their mistakes. The CBA of 2006 had less to do with good business than greed and ego and agendas and legacies not to mention fear of the unknown. Tagliabue didn't want a work stoppage blemish on his record as he retired, Gene wanted to rehab his image as a rubber stamp, and owners were no more prepared at that time then the numbskulls they shower millions on to withstand the strike Gene was poised to call if they didn't acquiesse to his demands and they were terrified by all his bluster about the uncapped unknown. So I guess you think that it's shame on them for making every effort to be better prepared this time out to demand they return to a deal that work reasonably well for both sides so we don't just land right back in this same mess in another couple of years because for one side or the other the current formula is untenable.
 
No I think there are a lot of non revenue issues the "union" can gain concessions on, IF they make some on the revenue issues.

1. The "tags" - you know those "dreaded" franchise and transition tags that "force" players into accepting 8 figure salaries :rolleyes:
2. The length of time to FA
3. The structure of the 18 game season
4. Roster size.
5. Where the savings the owners get on the rookie salary cap go.
6. Pensions,
7. Player safety issues

....and that's just off the top of my head. There can be a lot of REAL gains players can attain beyond getting even MORE money

The problem is historically this union has never cared much for those real gains vs. getting more money now.

Tags aren't at issue, don't matter enough to the union given the dozen players at most who bear :rolleyes: them per season. I don't think owners are willing to go much below 4 years for UFA but you never know. The 18 game season for the owners is merely a means to an end, a way to continue to grow revenue. Players would eventually get whatever % of that revenue they get overall. In the context of these negotiations, it's a means to the end of not reducing the $$$ players see even as their % of the pie decreases because the pie is now larger. And it would almost assuredly lead to roster expansion. The owners have already proposed that ALL the savings from the rookie cap go to veterans and pensions. It's the NFLPA who has recently changed it's tune on what was supposed to be their only issue with a rookie wage scale proposal...they now want half the savings to go back to the rookies...

In many respects player safety is the toughest issue for the NFLPA to deal with. It's easier to point fingers at the owners. Players who see their value diminish or evaporate because of health and safety concerns often don't appreciate the efforts of those trying to protect them (often from themselves) at the cost of a 7 figure job.
 
Hey, MoLewis:

Talk about pot to kettle...I'm not sure you comprehend the basic written word...

That's a pretty remarkable thing to say, coming from a person who couldn't get through a short blog post without leaving behind a pile of grammatical errors. You might want to substitute "its" for "it's" in a place or two, and "there" for "their," and "simply" for "simple," and "Standard and Poor's" for "Standard and Poor," and "exploded" for "emploded" (that was a double error -- you meant "imploded," but you not only spelled it wrong, that was the wrong word to use in that context). I usually hate it when people on sports message boards correct grammar and spelling, but if you're going to be rude and tell me I don't comprehend English, you should probably at least try to make it through your first paragraph without multiple grade-school-level mistakes.

As for the rest of what you're saying: from what I can make out, you're saying the owners always planned to eventually compensate the players for the funds they improperly stashed in their Enronseque cookie jar in advance of the lockout. Even if it is true, this completely misses the point: the owners had no right to unilaterally dispose of that money in a way that acted against the interest of the players. They certainly had no right to delay proper compensation of the players for their work and essentially borrow the players' earnings to use as a war chest against the players in a labor dispute!

It's not just me saying this; the judge in this case also said the same thing. As business partners with a union working under a CBA, the owners are required to negotiate with the NFL's contractors in good faith for both management and the players. Do you seriously believe that the players would have agreed to allow the league to temporarily undercharge the networks so that they, the owners, could have a war chest in the event of a lockout later on?
 
One of the things that people seem to forget in this picture, including almost every player, is that they receive extraordinary benefits from the teams. And those benefits aren't given a monetary value. However, to us real world people, it's things that are costing us 10-15% (or more) of our paychecks.

1) The Players get state of the art work out facilities with unlimited access to certified trainers.

2) The players get access to top flight medical staff and don't have to pay a dime for insurance. They also can get 2nd and 3rd opinions at the team's expense.

3) During the weeks of training camps, OTAs, mini-camps, they get their meals prepped for them. With a nutritionist available.

4) They have financial specialists made available to them for their post career planning. At no cost to them.

That is just some of the benefits that they get. That they aren't required to pay for. Yet it does have a monetary value.
 
As for the rest of what you're saying: from what I can make out, you're saying the owners always planned to eventually compensate the players for the funds they improperly stashed in their Enronseque cookie jar in advance of the lockout. Even if it is true, this completely misses the point: the owners had no right to unilaterally dispose of that money in a way that acted against the interest of the players. They certainly had no right to delay proper compensation of the players for their work and essentially borrow the players' earnings to use as a war chest against the players in a labor dispute!

Don - I suggest you go and check the Harvard study about how the order of letters doesn't really make a difference.

Next, you may want to educate yourself on the actual TV revenue contracts and not just read Doty's interpretation. If you did, you'd know that what MO said is, in fact, correct. The contracts asked for the money to be paid, regardless of the season. However, the owners would only be able to access a limited amount of those funds. Their share based on the current contracts. The rest of the money would be held for if/when the games resumed and it needed to be distributed. There was nothing Enronesque about it and your a fool for saying so.

The contracts also stated that the money would be paid back if no games were played. Which was a change from previous contracts where the NFL wouldn't have to repay ANY of the funds for games that weren't played.

Also, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the owners did have the right to change the expiring TV contracts "unilaterally" since the owners/NFL are the ones who negotiate it in the first place. The players have no say in those contracts, nor should they.

Finally, with no collective bargain in place, the owners do have the right to lock out the players and withhold money from them. It's a bargaining tool and it is one of the few weapons that owners have in their arsenal.



It's not just me saying this; the judge in this case also said the same thing. As business partners with a union working under a CBA, the owners are required to negotiate with the NFL's contractors in good faith for both management and the players. Do you seriously believe that the players would have agreed to allow the league to temporarily undercharge the networks so that they, the owners, could have a war chest in the event of a lockout later on?

Actually, the judge didn't say that. Clearly, you misunderstood what he said. Not to mention that the judge is a friggin hypocrite because of his comments about the Special Master supposedly trying to impose Corporate law into a special situation only to turn around and do the exact same thing himself.

The union and the league are not business partners. The members of the union are employees of the NFL. Period. The league's first interest is ensuring it's longevity and protecting it's different business centers (teams). Without the league, hundreds of thousands of people have their jobs affected. Not just the 1500 or so who line-up on the field for 17 weeks a year.

So, how about you stop with your rhetoric and get into reality?
 
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Don - I suggest you go and check the Harvard study about how the order of letters doesn't really make a difference.

Next, you may want to educate yourself on the actual TV revenue contracts and not just read Doty's interpretation. If you did, you'd know that what MO said is, in fact, correct. The contracts asked for the money to be paid, regardless of the season. However, the owners would only be able to access a limited amount of those funds. Their share based on the current contracts. The rest of the money would be held for if/when the games resumed and it needed to be distributed. There was nothing Enronesque about it and your a fool for saying so.

The contracts also stated that the money would be paid back if no games were played. Which was a change from previous contracts where the NFL wouldn't have to repay ANY of the funds for games that weren't played.

Also, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the owners did have the right to change the expiring TV contracts "unilaterally" since the owners/NFL are the ones who negotiate it in the first place. The players have no say in those contracts, nor should they.

Finally, with no collective bargain in place, the owners do have the right to lock out the players and withhold money from them. It's a bargaining tool and it is one of the few weapons that owners have in their arsenal.





Actually, the judge didn't say that. Clearly, you misunderstood what he said. Not to mention that the judge is a friggin hypocrite because of his comments about the Special Master supposedly trying to impose Corporate law into a special situation only to turn around and do the exact same thing himself.

The union and the league are not business partners. The members of the union are employees of the NFL. Period. The league's first interest is ensuring it's longevity and protecting it's different business centers (teams). Without the league, hundreds of thousands of people have their jobs affected. Not just the 1500 or so who line-up on the field for 17 weeks a year.

So, how about you stop with your rhetoric and get into reality?


First of all, I don't know what Harvard study you're talking about, but if it's something suggesting that grammar and spelling aren't important, you must have devoured it as gospel, because you can't write in English either. Are both the its/it's thing and the your/you're thing really that hard to figure out?

As for the rest of it, I'm sorry, but you're both wrong. The union and the league are business partners, at least according to the law that governs this particular business. The Stipulation and Settlement Agreement that governs the league's operations -- this is the legal framework that got hashed out over the last few decades in the wake of the White antitrust ruling -- requires the league to negotiate with its vendors and contractors in "good faith" for the "joint benefit" of both the players and the NFL. Thus the league does NOT have the right to unilaterally negotiate contracts that are injurious to the players' interests. This is spelled out quite explicitly in the SSA.

And you're right, the owners do have the right to lock out the players; I never said they didn't. But they don't have the right to undercharge the networks for 2009 and 2010 in return for higher fees during a work stoppage. The Enronesque portion of the deal came in the undercharging of the networks during those two playing years; the league arranged things so that it essentially recouped its money via more favorable work-stoppage provisions from the various networks. In the case of DirecTV, for instance, the network is bound to pay the league high fees in the event of a work stoppage. Thus they were "offshoring" 2009 and 2010 revenues into future years and loans from the networks, money that the players, who by then would presumably be locked out, wouldn't have access to.

I find it very odd that you're railing about all the lost jobs like this is somehow the players' fault. They're not the ones causing the work stoppage. What we have here is a group of owners who are locking out the players for not accepting what would be, by their own admission, at least a 9% pay cut -- at a time when the league is experiencing record profits. I understand that it's hard to sympathize with the Albert Haynesworths of the world who blow their millions and show up to work out of shape, and certainly there are greedy players, but I'm not sure I get why they should take a pay cut so that equally greedy billionaire owners can have bigger profits. At the very least, this whole situation is a wash, unless you just disapprove of unions in general, in which case I see your point but just disagree with you.
 
Thank you Mo for responding more eloquently to Don K's post that I would have. It should be noted that while I concur 100% with you, Don's views are widely held by the less informed.

I think what isn't being understood is that while the owners aren't currently LOSING money, most are no longer making the kind of money that is due an operation that takes in so much gross revenue and has such high operating costs.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the didn't the Packers (the only NFL team that has to publish their financials) only make only a few million in 2008 on operating costs in excess of 3 HUNDRED million. If I am even close to the correct numbers, those kind of percentages just don't work for the long haul for any business.

Revenues are flattening and it wouldn't take much for several teams to go from barely (relatively speaking) profitable to losing significant money. If that happens then the competitive balance that makes the NFL so compelling will disappear forever.
 
The problem is historically this union has never cared much for those real gains vs. getting more money now. Tags aren't at issue, don't matter enough to the union given the dozen players at most who bear :rolleyes: them per season.

I agree, but it is the kind of issue that can be a "face saver" for the "union". Even a concession like limiting the number of times a player can be franchised to one or two, could be viewed as win.

I don't think owners are willing to go much below 4 years for UFA but you never know.
God I hope not. For the majority of players coming into the league, even the good ones take 2-3 years to become really productive. If I were an owner I would hold out for at LEAST 5 years before a player could become an UFA. Otherwise a lot teams would become mere training grounds for OTHER team's players. It would make it harder to keep players long term.

The 18 game season for the owners is merely a means to an end, a way to continue to grow revenue. Players would eventually get whatever % of that revenue they get overall.

You are right that the 18 game season is the ONLY realistic way to keep the revenue increasing. I think the players know that. In fact, I believe that given the amount of mass substitutions we see now, most players today playing in an 18 game.2 pre season game year, wouldn't be seeing many more snaps than most "starters" did a decade ago playing in a 16 game 4 pre season game season.

Also by "conceding to this economic reality, the players will be viewed as making a big concession, and can use to gain advantages elsewhere,

And it would almost assuredly lead to roster expansion. [/QUOTE
That's a HUGE win for the players. Adding 3 men to the roster would create more than 100 new jobs. Thats a 6% increase....in THIS economy.

The owners have already proposed that ALL the savings from the rookie cap go to veterans and pensions. It's the NFLPA who has recently changed it's tune on what was supposed to be their only issue with a rookie wage scale proposal...they now want half the savings to go back to the rookies...

Yeah, I know. But the devil is in the details and they haven't been worked out yet. Still its another place where the players can gain. I can't believe that they are pressing to give the rookies as little as possible, while lobbying for the maximum return to the vets.

In many respects player safety is the toughest issue for the NFLPA to deal with. It's easier to point fingers at the owners. Players who see their value diminish or evaporate because of health and safety concerns often don't appreciate the efforts of those trying to protect them (often from themselves) at the cost of a 7 figure job.

Amen to that brother. but still here is one area I am fully behind players. There are too many corporate deals that are made that keep some safety innovations from getting into the league. For example the league has a helmet deal, so if I'm a company that has invented a better way to prevent concussions, I not only have to prove the value of my innovation, I have to pay the league a lot of money to supplant the current deal.

I would work to change things like that. Playing surfaces are another area I think can be improved
 
As for the rest of it, I'm sorry, but you're both wrong. The union and the league are business partners, at least according to the law that governs this particular business. The Stipulation and Settlement Agreement that governs the league's operations -- this is the legal framework that got hashed out over the last few decades in the wake of the White antitrust ruling -- requires the league to negotiate with its vendors and contractors in "good faith" for the "joint benefit" of both the players and the NFL. Thus the league does NOT have the right to unilaterally negotiate contracts that are injurious to the players' interests. This is spelled out quite explicitly in the SSA.

And you're right, the owners do have the right to lock out the players; I never said they didn't. But they don't have the right to undercharge the networks for 2009 and 2010 in return for higher fees during a work stoppage. The Enronesque portion of the deal came in the undercharging of the networks during those two playing years; the league arranged things so that it essentially recouped its money via more favorable work-stoppage provisions from the various networks. In the case of DirecTV, for instance, the network is bound to pay the league high fees in the event of a work stoppage. Thus they were "offshoring" 2009 and 2010 revenues into future years and loans from the networks, money that the players, who by then would presumably be locked out, wouldn't have access to.
.

You make a good point Don, but I think (and the operative word here is "think") that the players had some kind of representation in the negotiation of the TV deal.?????
 
Thank you Mo for responding more eloquently to Don K's post that I would have. It should be noted that while I concur 100% with you, Don's views are widely held by the less informed.

I think what isn't being understood is that while the owners aren't currently LOSING money, most are no longer making the kind of money that is due an operation that takes in so much gross revenue and has such high operating costs.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the didn't the Packers (the only NFL team that has to publish their financials) only make only a few million in 2008 on operating costs in excess of 3 HUNDRED million. If I am even close to the correct numbers, those kind of percentages just don't work for the long haul for any business.

Revenues are flattening and it wouldn't take much for several teams to go from barely (relatively speaking) profitable to losing significant money. If that happens then the competitive balance that makes the NFL so compelling will disappear forever.

Actually I think Don K expresses his opinion well. I like well reasoned opposing viewpoints such as he presents.

That said, your latest point about profit margins is on point as usual. If the numbers are accurate GB makes well under 10% profit margins, probably under 5%. That is abysmal and close to the margins of failure. People have no comprehension of profit margin % and simply react to big numbers of total revenue and somehow think that the business gets to keep most of it. Not so.
 
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I think what isn't being understood is that while the owners aren't currently LOSING money, most are no longer making the kind of money that is due an operation that takes in so much gross revenue and has such high operating costs.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the didn't the Packers (the only NFL team that has to publish their financials) only make only a few million in 2008 on operating costs in excess of 3 HUNDRED million. If I am even close to the correct numbers, those kind of percentages just don't work for the long haul for any business.

Revenues are flattening and it wouldn't take much for several teams to go from barely (relatively speaking) profitable to losing significant money. If that happens then the competitive balance that makes the NFL so compelling will disappear forever.

Also of note is that public funding for stadiums and infrastructure is drying up. Owners are now funding 500m to 1 billion dollar stadiums with their own money (which they should). The league has also started stadium funds to help with that. The risk is entirely on the owners, the money needs to come from somewhere.
 
First of all, I don't know what Harvard study you're talking about, but if it's something suggesting that grammar and spelling aren't important, you must have devoured it as gospel, because you can't write in English either. Are both the its/it's thing and the your/you're thing really that hard to figure out?

Of course you don't know the Harvard study I am talking about. If you did, you'd have one less thing to complain about. Also, I used "IT'S" three times in my post and typoed it once by adding the apostrophe. People like yourself who harp on things like that tend to be the ones who don't know what they are talking about otherwise.

As for the rest of it, I'm sorry, but you're both wrong. The union and the league are business partners, at least according to the law that governs this particular business. The Stipulation and Settlement Agreement that governs the league's operations -- this is the legal framework that got hashed out over the last few decades in the wake of the White antitrust ruling -- requires the league to negotiate with its vendors and contractors in "good faith" for the "joint benefit" of both the players and the NFL. Thus the league does NOT have the right to unilaterally negotiate contracts that are injurious to the players' interests. This is spelled out quite explicitly in the SSA.

You clearly don't realize how wrong you are so talking with you further on the subject is pointless. And, no, they aren't partners. The union members are still employees. Otherwise, the league couldn't just rip up a player's contract whenever it wanted to.

Sorry, but Doty is wrong in his ruling. The Special Master was correct and Doty over-ruled him for the sake of doing so. Not because he has actual applicable ligation examples. Doty did the same thing that he bashed the Special Master for doing. Applying Corporate Law to a special situation.

Also, there is no actual proof that what the league was "injurious to the players interests." There is plenty of proof that what the players have been doing has been injurious to the Owners interests. You and they seem to have forgotten that.

And you're right, the owners do have the right to lock out the players; I never said they didn't. But they don't have the right to undercharge the networks for 2009 and 2010 in return for higher fees during a work stoppage. The Enronesque portion of the deal came in the undercharging of the networks during those two playing years; the league arranged things so that it essentially recouped its money via more favorable work-stoppage provisions from the various networks. In the case of DirecTV, for instance, the network is bound to pay the league high fees in the event of a work stoppage. Thus they were "offshoring" 2009 and 2010 revenues into future years and loans from the networks, money that the players, who by then would presumably be locked out, wouldn't have access to.

You really need to stop making comparisons to Enron because all you are doing is showing that, like this situation, you just don't know what you are talking about.

The league did NOT arrange things so it essentially recouped its money via more favorable work stoppage provisions. Only an idiot would believe that. Especially since, in previous contracts, the league did not have to repay any of the money it got in the event of games not being played. The new contracts were set up that the league would have to repay the networks for games missed. Either with cash or with games. So, this whole idea that it was pushing money into the future just doesn't hold up.

I find it very odd that you're railing about all the lost jobs like this is somehow the players' fault. They're not the ones causing the work stoppage. What we have here is a group of owners who are locking out the players for not accepting what would be, by their own admission, at least a 9% pay cut -- at a time when the league is experiencing record profits. I understand that it's hard to sympathize with the Albert Haynesworths of the world who blow their millions and show up to work out of shape, and certainly there are greedy players, but I'm not sure I get why they should take a pay cut so that equally greedy billionaire owners can have bigger profits. At the very least, this whole situation is a wash, unless you just disapprove of unions in general, in which case I see your point but just disagree with you.

The players are just as much to blame for the work stoppage as the owners. You clearly don't understand that.

You really should get with the program because the players are using funny math. 4.76 billion is NOT 41% of 9 billion. It's 52.89%. Yet, the players claim the former.

The players also want "Better healthcare" and "Better Pensions", pro-rated raised for an 18 game schedule, and the want a say in how the owners use the $1 billion additional that the owners want to take off the top.

If you actually want to be taken seriously in the conversation, I suggest you get up to speed because you are clearly working from an extremely limited set of information and misinterpretations.
 
Why do you label your threads as "idle thoughts"? They seem anything but idle. You should re-name them "deliberate contemplations."
I prefer drunken maundering, but that's only because I like to envision Ken settled comfortably in his garden with hot & cold running maids fetching him fresh drinks as he contemplates the meaning of football. :cool:
 
I prefer drunken maundering, but that's only because I like to envision Ken settled comfortably in his garden with hot & cold running maids fetching him fresh drinks as he contemplates the meaning of football. :cool:

Please PM me with Ken's address
 
Of course you don't know the Harvard study I am talking about. If you did, you'd have one less thing to complain about. Also, I used "IT'S" three times in my post and typoed it once by adding the apostrophe. People like yourself who harp on things like that tend to be the ones who don't know what they are talking about otherwise.


Did you accidentally write "your" instead of "you're" as well? You should be careful of those typing accidents. Incidentally, commas go inside quotation marks in this country. Are you British? Great to see the NFL has succeeded in "growing the game" across the pond!


You clearly don't realize how wrong you are so talking with you further on the subject is pointless. And, no, they aren't partners. The union members are still employees. Otherwise, the league couldn't just rip up a player's contract whenever it wanted to.


Yes, the players are employees, and the owners are employers, and yes, the owners have the right to tear up player contracts in certain situations. Great point -- it has nothing to do with what we're talking about, but great point.

No one is saying that the players have or should have a "say" in how contracts are negotiated. But the SSA clearly states that the owners must negotiate to the joint benefit of both players and management when it does its business deals. In other words, the owners don't have to ask the players' permission when they put together their broadcast contracts, but if they do a deal without "good faith" that's not in the players' interests, the players are legally allowed to seek redress in court. Which is exactly what happened.

If this were the old, pre-nineties NFL, and the players were mere employees in a normal corporation, you'd be right. But once the league agreed to share revenue with the players -- which incidentally it was forced to do, after a jury found it guilty of antitrust violations -- it entered into a de facto partnership with the players. That partnership has rules, and these TV deals violated those rules.

You really need to stop making comparisons to Enron because all you are doing is showing that, like this situation, you just don't know what you are talking about... The league did NOT arrange things so it essentially recouped its money via more favorable work stoppage provisions. Only an idiot would believe that.

You're probably not a Bill Simmons fan (or, as you would say, "Your probably not a Bill Simmons fan"), but here's his metaphorical take -- no Enron, but Apple:

"I scramble and swing a deal with Apple: $200 million for five-year rights to sell applications for my site. There's an evil wrinkle: The deal can't kick in until the start of Year 5. If my site goes into hiatus because I locked out my employees, I can still cash that $200 million for myself. How does that windfall help me? Now I don't care if my employees walk: I have my Apple money, my foreign investor money and my PSL money. I can play hardball. I can afford to wait them out."

You'll find the same interpretation in the New York Times, the Washington Post, the LA Times, Yahoo! sports, the Globe... I'm not saying everyone had the same view on it, but certainly a large number of people who read the ruling and the complaint came away believing that the owners had manipulated the TV deals to benefit themselves in the labor dispute, taking discounts in 2009 and 2010 in exchange for better provisions down the road.

I get that you disagree with me, but if you want to be rude and call me an idiot, and claim that "only an idiot" would take my side, you should probably explain how it is that there are so many other idiots out there. There are a lot of us, and curiously a lot of us seem to have jobs that involve following this story.

The players are just as much to blame for the work stoppage as the owners. You clearly don't understand that... You really should get with the program because the players are using funny math. 4.76 billion is NOT 41% of 9 billion. It's 52.89%. Yet, the players claim the former.

I think you might have "all revenue" confused with "total revenue," which is a different term from the CBA that defines the pool of money to be shared by the owners and players. "All revenue" is that same pool, plus the expenses the owners take off the top -- two different numbers.

For most of the last ten years, the players have been receiving a little under 60% of "total revenue" and a little over 50% of "all revenue." Their percentage of both cuts has actually been declining slightly over the course of the last decade (they had about 51% of all revenue in '09 vs. about 56% in 2000; they had 57.1% of total revenue in '09 vs just over 61% in 2000). So when the players talk about 41%, they're talking about what their projected share of "all revenue" would be after the owners' proposed pay cuts are added to the money they'd be losing after an additional billion is taken out for expenses. I think you're thinking (or, as you would say, "your thinking") of their share of "total revenue."

The players also want "Better healthcare" and "Better Pensions", [sic] pro-rated raised [sic] for an 18 game schedule, and the [sic] want a say in how the owners use the $1 billion additional [sic] that the owners want to take off the top.

Damn those typing accidents, huh? Anyway, so your point is, the employees in one of the most physically dangerous workplaces in America want better health care and pensions. That sounds unreasonable! And when asked to play two extra games a year, these employees have the nerve to ask to be paid for that work. What could they possibly be thinking? Who wouldn't instantly volunteer to increase his workload by 12.5% for free? If your boss asked you, DaBruinz, to work three extra days a month for free, you would, right? And you'd definitely do it if your job involved slamming your head into concrete four or five times an afternoon, right?
 
I'm not sure about your reasoning and I'm not sure you understand the situation very well.

The players had nothing to do with causing this latest round of labor unrest. Pure and simple, this is the owners collectively deciding that they want more money. There are no major issues about player rights or anything like that. If the league was pulling in $10 billion a year before, and it's now pulling in $11 billion, the owners want 100% of that money -- they don't want to share even a penny of it. Essentially, they are asking to retain 100% of all the league's growth. Which is unreasonable and defies the whole concept of "partnership" that you are talking about.
Clearly your views are pro-players. But there is another perspective here.
The owners didnt just decide to go back on an agreement, they exercised an opt out that was in the agreement. In other words, the union decided in the CBA that the owners had a unilateral opt out. They would not have gotten what they did in the agreement had they not accepted that right.

Of course the owners want more money, they are running a business.
It amazes me that people seem to think a business is supposed to not be motivated by profit. That is why they exist, to make money. Of course they will fight for every penny.

Another example of the owners' attempts to skirt the partnership is this hoarding of TV revenue in advance of the lockout. The owners essentially volunteered to earn less from the networks in the last few years in exchange for a promise that the networks would lend them $4 billion during any lockout. This is an outrageous violation of the CBA; what it means is that the owners stole roughly $2.4 billion from the players.
Again, this is a business plan. It is hard to argue the intelligence of buying insurance. In this case they bought insurance against a work stoppage.
It is debatable whether this is a violation, although one judge agrees with you. Stealing is a shaky characterization though.

The players are entitled to 60% of all revenue, but the league gave the networks a "discount" and basically asked them to bank that $4 billion, i.e. keep it out of the league kitty so that it couldn't be divvied up as per the CBA. Had that money been paid in the usual way, the owners would only have received $1.6 billion of it. Now they're keeping all of it, or at least they would have, had a judge not intervened.

That wasn't just taking money improperly, it was also a blatantly unfair labor practice, in the sense that it both took money the players could have used to save up during the lockout and also gave the owners a war chest they could live on in the event of a work stoppage.
Again, this is debatable, but again, you have a judge on your side of the argument.
Also, the players were once entitled to 60% of the revenues but as of 2010 were not. You can't give them entitlement to 60% without recognizing that in order to gain that percentage they gave ownership the choice of opting out.

The whole thing was an Enron-style accounting tactic. The owners were keeping funds that they actually controlled (i.e. the $4 billion) off their books so that their "partners" (the players) couldn't access it. And the amazing thing is that the players didn't even complain about it until now. They weren't going after that money; they were happy to keep playing under the existing CBA. But even absconding with that much money wasn't enough for the owners. They're still trying to opt out of the deal in order to guarantee that they get another billion dollars of new revenue all to themselves.
Of course the owners are motivated by profit. On the other hand, so are the players. If the players werent trying to get every penny they could, then there would be labor peace as well.

If the owners don't blink today, they're fools, because once this gets into the courts, they're not only going to lose their argument for control of new revenue, they're going to have to pay damages for the hidden TV revenue and give up a lot of rights they currently enjoy. Almost guaranteed, if it gets before this current judge, the owners will lose the franchise tag, and who knows, they may even lose the salary cap or their entire antitrust exemption. Which will suck for the fans.
This is where it gets confusing to me.
For the union to succeed it must abolish itself. If it does so, then players are no longer collectively bargaining and will have to play for whatever the market allows. At this point the owners could set that 60% at 30% if they chose to, spread out one player at a time. The cumulative effect would be irrelevant because the players would no longer be represented collectively.
It would seem that decertification (which as I understand it is the only way Doty remains in the picture) is just a ploy to create havoc resulting in recertifying. I don't understand how you can abolish a union in order to create bargaining power for the union that will reemerge.

From what I understand the players are willing to give up some of what they got in the last CBA,
It would seem they have to since the owners opted out. If they found the CBA unacceptable to the point they opted out, the union will have to give back for the owners to find it acceptable now.

but this thing isn't going to get done because a certain clique of owners won't budge at all -- and if it gets to the courts, we'll not only have a work stoppage but the new version of the NFL won't have a franchise tag and fans in small-market cities like Indy and Minnesota will have to live in dread of losing the Mannings and Petersons to, well, the Jets. I don't see how the fact that there are a lot of free agents about to hit the market makes this any more the union's fault than it was, and it was never really the union's fault at all.
I dont know how the fault could be anything but shared.
I also dont think anyone really knows how things will develop if a lockout occurs. Obviously if that were to happen boths sides bevy of lawyers feel the courts would rule in their favor. Large or small markets are much less of an impact in the NFL as in other sports because the lions share of revenue, TV, is shared.
The Yankees have more money than other teams mostly because of their TV money from the YES network. Their ticket sale revenue is not much different than many teams, and in the NFL the difference is even smaller.
Small market vs large market would have much less of an impact in the NFL than it does in MLB.
 
Hey, MoLewis:

Talk about pot to kettle...I'm not sure you comprehend the basic written word...

That's a pretty remarkable thing to say, coming from a person who couldn't get through a short blog post without leaving behind a pile of grammatical errors. You might want to substitute "its" for "it's" in a place or two, and "there" for "their," and "simply" for "simple," and "Standard and Poor's" for "Standard and Poor," and "exploded" for "emploded" (that was a double error -- you meant "imploded," but you not only spelled it wrong, that was the wrong word to use in that context). I usually hate it when people on sports message boards correct grammar and spelling, but if you're going to be rude and tell me I don't comprehend English, you should probably at least try to make it through your first paragraph without multiple grade-school-level mistakes.

As for the rest of what you're saying: from what I can make out, you're saying the owners always planned to eventually compensate the players for the funds they improperly stashed in their Enronseque cookie jar in advance of the lockout. Even if it is true, this completely misses the point: the owners had no right to unilaterally dispose of that money in a way that acted against the interest of the players. They certainly had no right to delay proper compensation of the players for their work and essentially borrow the players' earnings to use as a war chest against the players in a labor dispute!

It's not just me saying this; the judge in this case also said the same thing. As business partners with a union working under a CBA, the owners are required to negotiate with the NFL's contractors in good faith for both management and the players. Do you seriously believe that the players would have agreed to allow the league to temporarily undercharge the networks so that they, the owners, could have a war chest in the event of a lockout later on?

"Business partners" is a buzzword the union likes to throw out there.
The relationship is not business partners, it is employer and employee.

I think its a slippery slope to say that the NFL was stealing money from the players by negotiating the deal. Unless I am mistaken the Players Union has no say in the business, marketing, expense and revenue generation policies of the teams.
One judge has stated that forgoing current revenue for the insurance of revenue during a work stoppage was inappropriate, but there is much debate over whether that would hold up on appeal. In fact the Special Master found it was appropriate before the union appealed that decision.

"Right or wrong" may depend on the day the discussion takes place and the opinion of the most recent arbiter. I don't see 2 differing and apparently reasonable interpretations as malfeasance or theivery.
 
Of course you don't know the Harvard study I am talking about. If you did, you'd have one less thing to complain about. Also, I used "IT'S" three times in my post and typoed it once by adding the apostrophe. People like yourself who harp on things like that tend to be the ones who don't know what they are talking about otherwise.


Did you accidentally write "your" instead of "you're" as well? You should be careful of those typing accidents. Incidentally, commas go inside quotation marks in this country. Are you British? Great to see the NFL has succeeded in "growing the game" across the pond!


You clearly don't realize how wrong you are so talking with you further on the subject is pointless. And, no, they aren't partners. The union members are still employees. Otherwise, the league couldn't just rip up a player's contract whenever it wanted to.


Yes, the players are employees, and the owners are employers, and yes, the owners have the right to tear up player contracts in certain situations. Great point -- it has nothing to do with what we're talking about, but great point.

No one is saying that the players have or should have a "say" in how contracts are negotiated. But the SSA clearly states that the owners must negotiate to the joint benefit of both players and management when it does its business deals. In other words, the owners don't have to ask the players' permission when they put together their broadcast contracts, but if they do a deal without "good faith" that's not in the players' interests, the players are legally allowed to seek redress in court. Which is exactly what happened.

If this were the old, pre-nineties NFL, and the players were mere employees in a normal corporation, you'd be right. But once the league agreed to share revenue with the players -- which incidentally it was forced to do, after a jury found it guilty of antitrust violations -- it entered into a de facto partnership with the players. That partnership has rules, and these TV deals violated those rules.

You really need to stop making comparisons to Enron because all you are doing is showing that, like this situation, you just don't know what you are talking about... The league did NOT arrange things so it essentially recouped its money via more favorable work stoppage provisions. Only an idiot would believe that.

You're probably not a Bill Simmons fan (or, as you would say, "Your probably not a Bill Simmons fan"), but here's his metaphorical take -- no Enron, but Apple:

"I scramble and swing a deal with Apple: $200 million for five-year rights to sell applications for my site. There's an evil wrinkle: The deal can't kick in until the start of Year 5. If my site goes into hiatus because I locked out my employees, I can still cash that $200 million for myself. How does that windfall help me? Now I don't care if my employees walk: I have my Apple money, my foreign investor money and my PSL money. I can play hardball. I can afford to wait them out."

You'll find the same interpretation in the New York Times, the Washington Post, the LA Times, Yahoo! sports, the Globe... I'm not saying everyone had the same view on it, but certainly a large number of people who read the ruling and the complaint came away believing that the owners had manipulated the TV deals to benefit themselves in the labor dispute, taking discounts in 2009 and 2010 in exchange for better provisions down the road.

I get that you disagree with me, but if you want to be rude and call me an idiot, and claim that "only an idiot" would take my side, you should probably explain how it is that there are so many other idiots out there. There are a lot of us, and curiously a lot of us seem to have jobs that involve following this story.

The players are just as much to blame for the work stoppage as the owners. You clearly don't understand that... You really should get with the program because the players are using funny math. 4.76 billion is NOT 41% of 9 billion. It's 52.89%. Yet, the players claim the former.

I think you might have "all revenue" confused with "total revenue," which is a different term from the CBA that defines the pool of money to be shared by the owners and players. "All revenue" is that same pool, plus the expenses the owners take off the top -- two different numbers.

For most of the last ten years, the players have been receiving a little under 60% of "total revenue" and a little over 50% of "all revenue." Their percentage of both cuts has actually been declining slightly over the course of the last decade (they had about 51% of all revenue in '09 vs. about 56% in 2000; they had 57.1% of total revenue in '09 vs just over 61% in 2000). So when the players talk about 41%, they're talking about what their projected share of "all revenue" would be after the owners' proposed pay cuts are added to the money they'd be losing after an additional billion is taken out for expenses. I think you're thinking (or, as you would say, "your thinking") of their share of "total revenue."

The players also want "Better healthcare" and "Better Pensions", [sic] pro-rated raised [sic] for an 18 game schedule, and the [sic] want a say in how the owners use the $1 billion additional [sic] that the owners want to take off the top.

Damn those typing accidents, huh? Anyway, so your point is, the employees in one of the most physically dangerous workplaces in America want better health care and pensions. That sounds unreasonable! And when asked to play two extra games a year, these employees have the nerve to ask to be paid for that work. What could they possibly be thinking? Who wouldn't instantly volunteer to increase his workload by 12.5% for free? If your boss asked you, DaBruinz, to work three extra days a month for free, you would, right? And you'd definitely do it if your job involved slamming your head into concrete four or five times an afternoon, right?


I think you have very valid points just like the players do. but i think the thing your overlooking in the argument is what the owners are saying. It is costing the owners alot of money to generate the profit and the margin (as someone pointed out earlier in the greenbay example) is very small. I think the numbers were to make a couple of million Greenbay spent over 300million.

I think this is the crux of the owners argument. Also when you are using the examples of would dabruins be fine with working more hours for the same pay, i think this is a false example. The point of the owners is that the recent CBA is very player centric and a bad deal for owners.

So in reality what they (to use the example you did) are saying to dabruins is hey we have been paying you 80K for a job that we think is only actually worth 70K to us, you work 3 days more and we believe you will be paid what you are worth.

Now you may disagree with their version of value but i think that explains the owners side a bit more.

Also your enron example was poor but the apple one was a bit better enron wasn't pushing money into the future they were claiming future earnings on their books before they received it... e.g we just signed a contract to make a power plant that will earn 100mil a year from 2015 onwards but recognizing that 100mil in 2011 therefore inflating the value of your company on book value but not real value (illegal) where what the owners are doing is very legal because they actually have earned that revenue the moment the deal is signed whether they deliver the product or not.
 
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