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Idle thoughts - 3 losses 4 points

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by patfanken, Oct 21, 2012.

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  1. patfanken

    patfanken On the Roster

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    #91 Jersey

    After last weeks loss, like most of us I was pretty disgusted. I turned off the TV and have pretty much kept away from all football talk this entire week until now. I haven't visited the any Jet boards, or this one for that matter. I avoided virtually all the media even down to Patriots all acess, though I will watch it tomorrow morning. So its been a pretty football free week for me to apologizes in advance for any material I might regurgitate that I have missed.

    You see I wanted to avoid all the aggravation from the finger pointers here and in the media. Not that weren't fingers that deserved to be pointed, and I'll point a few in this post. But at the time it seemed pretty pointless, and too many people now get too much pleasure knocking other peoples well intentioned efforts

    The title of this essay is 3 losses and 6 points for a reason. The Pats have now lost 3 games by the razor thin margins of 3, 2, and 1 point. We all should know by now that when you lose games by that small a margin there are more than a dozen different individual plays and calls that can be pointed out and seconded guessed. Player mistakes both mental and physical can be called to attention, and each one in the perfect clarity of 20-20 hindsight seem more critical than the last.

    What we have is a very good football team who has in 3 games have done some very self destructive things that caused each loss, with the last one clearly the most painful of the 3. That was such a gift that the Pats gave to Seattle that I'm sure the thank you card is en route. The Pats had to literally bend over backwards to hand the game to a team that confirmed it is a pretty good football team as we saw on Thursday.....at least on the defensive side.

    1. I think the greatest blame for this game has to be laid at the feet of the coaching staff, though it never should have come down to that point. We were inside the Seattle 5 yd line TWICE in that game and came away with ZERO points. If we manage only 3 then that last TD would have been merely garbage time points.....not a game winning TD.

    2. Here is my complaint on Josh. Seattle did a much better job in playing the Pats run game than either of the 2 previous teams, BUT they didn't "shut it down" by any means. So why did Josh feel to throw the ball a record number of times in a difficult hostile environment. Its always much easier to run the ball on the road.

    3. Also f you have a good runing attack it makes your play action pass offense much more effective......UNLESS you rarely use it. :mad: I have no answer to the question, why we ran so much empty backfield packages when we were in short yardage (less than 5 yds) situations. Why even when we put a back there, we rarely bothered to run a fake. We left several bullets in our gun on Sunday and that was one of them.....for no apparent reason.

    4. My question for Matt is there a rule against the Pats running any stunts or blitzes. Have the Jets requested we play the same damned defense game after game as a way to make up for our offensive prowess.

    Baltimore, Arizona, and Seattle at the end of the game ALL sold out on defense to get that last stop when the Pats could have closed out the game. And all 3 were successful. In those 3 games I can recall only one time the Pats ran a strong blitz and when it failed we never went back to it again. What makes matters worse is we don't even FAKE blitzes We rarely do anything at the LOS that would make a QB nervous or feel presnap that he has to get the ball away early.

    If not Blitzes Matt, how about some stunts or zone blitzes where you still only rush 4 or less, but make the offense have to guess WHICH 4 or where they are coming from. I KNOW we have them in our arsenal. We just never seem to use them.

    Now please understand. No one respects the "bend but don't break philosophy" more than I. I don't care about yards, and BB's success doing it HIS way should make his point. HOWEVER there are points in a game when you have to open the play book. I KNOW this is a young defense who were missing BOTH their experienced Safeties....but still!.....

    5. OK I got that off my chest. Time to move on. Nothing that has happened has made me move off of the opinion that while we may be just .500 team right now, when the playoffs roll around in January, this will be a stronger and more physical overall football team than the one that entered the post season last year.

    I strongly believe we have the physical talent to be that team. Its going to be a matter of determining whether this group has the mental toughness to win those close ball games.

    6. On to the Jets: I haven't even bothered to troll Jet boards. There simply is no need. This latest whine that the league needs to "slow down" the Pats hurry up offense just confirms the clown college that is running that organization from top to bottom is still running the show.

    Here we have two 3-3 teams yet its been years since the "gap" has seemed greater between the 2 organizations than it does right now. And what makes trolling Jet board less enjoyable now is that even the die hard Jet fans realize it now

    They have come to realize that their HC is is clown and is really little more than a good DC who gives entertaining press conferences. That their owner is an embarrassment. And after years of telling us how BB couldn't draft, have come to the understand that THEIR GM has left the cupboard bare.

    They know that their 3-3 record is merely a mirage that will start to disappear Sunday afternoon and isn't going to get better as the weeks go on. While our 3-3 is just an anomaly and at the end of the season the Pats will be atop the AFCE again.

    7. On the more technical side. The Jets have one of the worst rushing defenses in the league, so I'm sure we will see a return to more rushing and more play action passes.

    I look forward to seeing Gronk get some looks downfield for a change

    1 look forward to seeing Sanchez soiling his pants when he looks up and sees 8 guys lining up at the LOS. And if we can at least see that, I won't care if Matt never sends them. I'll settle for a damned fake blitz. I'd also like to see a few DT/.DE stunts and stems if he insists on only rushing 4 guys.

    1 also look forward to seeing how BB is going to play his safeties since we aren't sure who will be available and for how long. I've said for a couple of week now. We miss Steve Gregory.

    8. I hope this missive adds to your Sunday morning ritual. This game can't get here fast enough to wash off the stink of that Seattle game. I might have been infinitely more productive this past week, but it hasn't nearly been as much fun. ;)
  2. Ice_Ice_Brady

    Ice_Ice_Brady Rookie

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    This was a long thread to read, and I tried to get through it. I agree with your analysis on a lot of the issues.

    A couple of points:

    -Vegas/bettors are not buying the 3-3 start as a sign of doom and gloom. Although they are still about 5/1, the Pats have the best odds of a SB win of any team in the NFL, according to many sportsbooks.

    -At the same time, I remember when the Chargers used to put up amazing stats like best offense, defense, and special teams statistically, and their fans would take pride in being 3-5 and just waiting for a turnaround, which didn't happen. Record is important. Instilling a winning culture is important, because if losing continues, the team starts pressing, plays tight, and stats, point differential, and wins all start falling at once.

    So, the 3-3 start is not the end of the world, but let's stop acting like it's no big deal. It is potentially a big deal. The Pats need to dig deep and start playing well in crunch time... the concern I have is that they just may not be capable of it right now. They have a pathetic closeout defense that always falls apart in prevent/zone situations, an offense that is utterly confused after they've exhausted their playbook and prayed they wouldn't need to get a first down, and a coaching staff that is always scared to make a bold call with the game on the line. I refuse to believe this team is good until they actually go on the road against a solid team, particularly a solid defense, and actually win the mental battle in the 4th quarter.

    -One more note: Gronk is clearly hobbled and may not be capable of being a downfield receiver right now. When you consider that Lloyd has done well outside the hashes but isn't really a vertical threat, I think that the combined injuries to Gronk and Hernandez have made us even more of a dink and dunk team than last year. If Gronk and Hernandez return to full speed, I think we'll see vast improvement and "stretching the field" galore, but that's a big if.
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2012
  3. jsull87

    jsull87 Rookie

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    The reality for me is a that i think this defense is a season a Saftey and a DE short at the moment of being a really solid unit.

    I thin Hightower returning will really help us but i just think it's all about getting to the tournament for this team this year and holefully we can squeeze in with a 11-5 or 12-4 record.
  4. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    The NEP have lost games this season by the following measures:

    1. ONE point loss to Seattle 23-24

    2. ONE point loss to Baltimore 30-31

    3. TWO point loss to Arizona 18-20


    In other words, they have lost 3 games by a total of 4 points combined...

    You should change it to "3 losses and 4 points." ;)
  5. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #51 Jersey

    All I'm seeing is 3 losses supa. The margin of defeat is inconsequential when discussing records as far as I'm concerned.
  6. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I certainly agree.

    I was just being a prick and nitpicking his thread title and point differential in good natured fun.

    A win tomorrow and everything's okay again.

    Another close or shocking loss and I don't know if my precious heart can take another :eek:

    Not to mention that starting 3-4 would take an 8-1 record just to get to 11-5. Something more realistic would likely be 7-2 with SF, HOU, and MIAx2, + another NYJ game coming up, and that would get us to 10-6.

    Let's not go there though. A win tomorrow will go a long way towards correcting things and allowing them to go into the bye at 5-3, which would be just fine.
  7. jcdavey

    jcdavey Rookie

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    the stat reminds me of when my chargers went 8-8 and lost the 8 games by a total of 34 points

    that was some brutal losses that season but made the playoffs, upset the colts, and then got owned in pitt
  8. Joker

    Joker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    you guys are so dense sometimes.... 3 loses by 6 = 3 losses by four

    c'mon...wake up out there!! the # of s's is inversely proportional to points scored...I thought EVERYBODY knew that...
  9. doesntmatter1

    doesntmatter1 Rookie

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    A few things i want to add. Lloyd looks like he is capable of being a deep threat. You don't have to be a burner to be a deep threat. Slow receivers catch deep balls against us etc. You just got to have ball skills and lloyd does.

    Our defense is a massive question mark. On a write up i did about trevor scott i mentioned how he isn't really effective unless he is stunting and I mentioned that is something we don't do. Our defense is weird in general. Garbage and great offenses usually score 20-30 points against us. I mean the saints, chargers, and packers could come here on a hot streak and none of them would score more than 35 max, but then the browns would come the following week and look just like the saints.

    Also, our defense doesn't seem to ever adapt throughout the game. Rush four and keep safeties back no matter how ineffective. Chung does alot of things well but covering deep bombs isnt one of them. If the ball travels through the air more than 25 yards he is of no help to the corner. I would let him roam around more and blitz him more often.

    Lastly, I am really starting to question matt patricia about everything. He was the linebacker coach and couldn't see how garbage guyton was. Really? Then after our secondary was good in 2010 with corwin brown i believe we just magically regress in 2011. You may argue we had new safeties that year but its a great coincidence that is when matt took over the secondary. Also guyton lost his job that year even though his play was consistently the same for years. Only difference was matt wasn't lb coach. Now matt is the defensive coordinator. Wow. The guy wears shorts when its snowing so he is clearly off his rocker but he just keeps going further up the ladder. Sadly, he may very well be our next head coach.
  10. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #51 Jersey

    I know... and that's why we get on so swimmingly. ;)
  11. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Nice post Ken, if we win today a lot of things will be better and everything will be rosier..
  12. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    From Reiss:

    Bill Belichick's New England Patriots are happy to live and die with their game-plan offense - ESPN Boston

    Personally, I'm not a fan of becoming so one-dimensional even if the opposing defensive scheme and personnel does suggest moving things in one direction. For me, one-dimension means more predictable, which means easier to stop when it counts. And that happened last week.
  13. borg

    borg On the Roster

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    Some stats I compiled this week:

    (Buffalo game not included...full moon outlier)

    -First half...Pats outscored opponent 85-40
    -Second half...Pats were outscored 55-69
    -4th quarter...Pats outscored 21-41
    -Pats have scored ONE 4th quarter TD total in these 5 games
    -Pats have surrendered five 4th quarter TDs in these 5 games

    Up for debate:

    Has the up-tempo no huddle offense gassed the offense late in games?
    Has relying on core players playing close to 100% of the snaps been too much? On offense, Brady, the Oline, Gronk. On D... Mayo,Wilfork, McCourty, Jones and the safeties for that day.

    Patriot historians....is this the most top heavy roster in Patriots history? I could be wrong, but the lack of substitutions throughout these games appears to be in sharp contrast to how the Patriots operated a decade earlier when depth was seen as a Patriot advantage?
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2012
  14. RelocatedPatFan

    RelocatedPatFan Rookie

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    What I don't get is the following: Their game plan didn't install much of a run game. But, if they found that they needed to run the ball, they couldn't because they didn't know how to setup the opposition (to understand how they'd react defensively)?

    And I agree with Ken, when you produce runs like we had the prior 2 weeks to Seattle, why give up the play action fake and go 5 wide. That particular formation on short/necessary yardage always gives me that sinking feeling (well only in the 4th quarter when trying to maintain a 1 score lead).
  15. goheels22002

    goheels22002 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Would you see points margin as significant if it were three losses by a combined 63 points?
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2012
  16. Gwedd

    Gwedd PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #61 Jersey

    Good insights as usual, Ken. Nothing for me to really argue with.

    I also stay away from this board, the NFLN, etc after a loss, as the screeching and doominess is almost unbearable. Easier on my ticker and overall mental health to just concentrate on work, family, etc, then show up here around Thursday/Friday when things have calmed down.

    For me, the big questions are 2.

    1.) Why aren't the Patriots using more blitzes? ANY type. Just do it.

    2.) We seem to win when we have a balanced attack, and stick with it. Running the ball against our opponents seems to gas them quicker than the Patriots get gassed. Down inside the 10 or even closer, run the d@mned ball. Pound it in there. We still have some big bodies we can put back there.


    At this point, if New England is inside the 10, I'd consider it 4-down territory in almost every case, especially if the ball is at the 5 or closer. Let teams understand that the Patriots are going to either score a TD or the opponent is going to have the ball in a very bad position.

    Extreme? Perhaps, but it could also force the mindset on the players that they DO NEED to close out those drives in the Red Zone rather than settling for a FG attempt.

    YMMV, of course, but that's how I see things just now.
  17. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Last edited: Oct 21, 2012
  18. olschool

    olschool Rookie

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    Supa, since you're being a prick, you might as well tell him that loSSes is the correct spelling for the title also.
  19. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    He's only a MATH prick.

    I'm a math and GRAMMAR prick.
  20. Dutchmaster617

    Dutchmaster617 Rookie

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    Yea no clue what this thread is about, and all losses were pathetic, the team doesn't have a killer instinct at all.
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