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I just watched Fahrenheit 9/11 last night.

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Brownfan80, Jun 7, 2007.

  1. Brownfan80

    Brownfan80 Rookie

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    I just watched Fahrenheit 9/11for the first time last night.

    I was floored. I had heard the implications before, but this movie presented what seemed to be facts. But those facts are now three years old.

    I am wondering several things this morning:

    A) How much of that movie was "true" and how much was "spin"?
    B) If there is truth in that movie then how have we not impeached Bush? If we can impeach a president for putting a cigar into a vagina how has Bush gotten away with what he's gotten away with?
    C) What has happened with all of these situations in the time since the movie was produced?
    D) What is the current civilian death toll in Iraq? What is the current American death and casualty figure for troops involved in the war?
    E) Who owns these oil companies that are now charging over three dollars a gallon? Why has the price risen so dramatically? Are the companies that are profiting tied to Bush or his associates? Are the prices rising in response to Bush's moves in regards to the oil in Iraq?

    I know that many of these issues are probably old and over-talked amongst some of you, but I'm new to politics and I'm only just now having the wool pulled out from in front of my eyes.

    Help me figure out what this movie has shown me, and what has happened since. I just want some truth. I've bought into the media version of events for far too long. Thanks.
  2. Danny Boy®

    Danny Boy® Banned

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    1% true, 99% spin. Michael Moore is a joke.
  3. Brownfan80

    Brownfan80 Rookie

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    So the Bush family is not in bed with Saudi's? So there isn't a pipeline being built in Iraq? So we didn't secure the oilfields first? So Bush isn't in bed with the oil industry?

    Much of the movie was presented as fact. If only 1% is true, which facts were fabricated?
  4. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Michael Moore has done a great job documenting Fahrenheit 9/11 on his website.

    http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=16

    Of course, his film, given it's power, has been attacked mercilessly by those who oppose his message, and they've claimed many things are wrong with it. A good point by point response to one of the leading critics can be found here:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/7/18/173312/462

    But, again, Moore's sources are very legitimate. His presentation is of course biased, but factually there's very little in his film that can be challenged.

    The fact that Bush hasn't been impeached probably has to do with Clinton impeachment exhaustion, 9/11 loyalty, and a Congress that was run by Republicans until recently. I would not be surprised if some of the current investigations ultimately lead to Congress considering the impeachment of Bush.
  5. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    Most everyone with an unbiased opinion agrees it is 1% fact, 99% spin. There will be radical, Bush-hating liberals who will try to convince you it's all factual, but don't let them fool you. They are nothing but venom-spouting morons with a political axe to grind.
    Another common misperception perpetuated by liberals. Clinton was impeached for lying under oath and obstructing justice, not for having an affair. You know, the exact same crimes liberals want to send Scooter Libby to jail for.
    You're going to have to be more specific in your question for me to respond.
    These figures are readily available to anyone that has the impetus to do his own research.
    Most big oil companies are publicly owned. So you, me, and anyone with a 401(k) "owns" the oil companies. One notable exception is Citgo, but I won't go there.
    Laws of supply and demand. ABC News reported just the other day that demand for gasoline has increased 3% over the past year. When demand rises so dramatically (and 3% is a large figure) without increasing supply, there will be price spikes.
    You have to clarify what you are asking here. I mean, yes, oil companies lobby in Washington - as does just about every other industry in the country.
    Doubtful, since the war has been going on about 4 years but the rise has been mostly over the past 18 months.
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2007
  6. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Michael Moore has become one of the Billionaires he once so despised, Moore says and does things to
    "p!ss off" the conservative side of America and he has made millions doing it, Barnum & Bailey would have been proud of him.

    When the Democrats were losing elections the Tub Of Sh!t saw his chance, the "Sore Losers" would pay anything to sit and listen to America being trashed, Payday For Moore.

    Moore started out trashing General Motors, Moore is now worse than General Motors could ever have been.

    The Bush Hating Sore Losers:
    They believe Moore because they want it to be so.
    :bricks:
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2007
  7. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    This is way too big to post but it's worth the read

    http://www.davekopel.org/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

    Better yet: There is a Four-page PDF summary of "Fifty-nine Deceits in Fahrenheit 9/11," which you may reproduce freely.

    You may also photocopy the full text of this report if you give it away for free. http://www.davekopel.org/terror/59Deceits.pdf
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2007
  8. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yes, and as I pointed out, the flaws in Kopels 59 deceits can be found here:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/7/18/173312/462

    I suggest you compare the sources used by the Moore to the unsusbantiated nonsense spewed by QuiGon, Harry Boy, and Danny Boy and you will realize that the right wing gets hysterical when confronted with Moore's facts, but does little back up it's claims. PatsSB42 at least posts the Dave Kopel piece, but I think the Dailykos link addresses many of his issues quite effectively.

    Perhaps one of the righties would care to find a link that challenges Moore's use of sources? That would raise some questions about F911.
  9. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Rookie

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  10. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    This from a guy who's two favorite sources are:

    1) Wikipedia (the free encyclopedia any moron can edit), and
    2) The Institute For Holocaust Denial, uh, I mean "Historical Review", a viscious, anti-Semitic website.

    So what were you saying about legitimate sources and references...?
  11. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    Patters, i just read that and there is alot of gymnastics taking place with his debugging. I don't have time to go point by point, I am working now but i will when i get a chance
  12. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    See, Brownfan, some of these guys are really unhinged. If they can't prove their point of view, they try to hijack the thread with unfounded personal attacks. I suggest that you ignore this kind of crap, and pay attention to the likes of Fogbuster, SB42, patsfan13, FTW, and Real World to see if they respond. They will post something that is helpful to you, but in case I think you'll find Moore's film a valid point of view.
  13. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    Unfounded..? You've done everything I've accused you of. Period, end of discussion. I am just surprised you have followed it up with your usual mode of censorship and/or threatening to ban me.
  14. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree with you that he uses some gymnastics, but he also points out the same in Kopel's piece. I only used that link because it's rare to find anyone trying to debunk the guy who is trying to debunk Michael Moore. I think if you read all three items, Moore's documentation comes off as the most legitimate because he provides detailed sources without commentary.
  15. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Putting on My Moderator's Hat

    This thread is about Michael Moore's film F911. Please do not hijack the thread. It is not fair to the original poster. Thanks.
  16. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    More of the same old from QuiGon. Over half of his sentences never relate to the threads he post in, and are often just personal attacks on people. People like him are deluded, they fit the world and facts to a pre-determined bias or conclusion.

    For Brown: I think Moore's film was based on some pretty solid evidence, however he made the movie with such an obvious slant and spin that the content of his message is not well received by people who support those he attacks.
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2007
  17. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You should refrain from personal attacks. They posted their opinions which many people do without citing references. You don't like them and try to set up a straw man.
  18. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    True or False, FarenHype411 was a Documentary?
  19. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It was an op ed piece.
  20. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    You mean using logic, giving informed opinions, and giving facts to back up those opinions..? Yeah, that actually is "more of the same" from me.
    Yeah... and you would never resort to personal attacks... no, not you... you would neeeeeeeeeeeeeever do that... :rolleyes:
    This from the guy who accused the US government of orchestrating the kidmapping of 15 British sailors and marines. And he thinks the NBA draft lottery was fixed to give the top 2 picks to Portland and Seattle. Yeah, because that makes sense... Oh, but I'm the deluded one. Yeah. Sure. :rolleyes:
  21. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz............

    This from the biggest partisan in the entire forum. So is Moore's movie a Documentary?
  22. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's an op ed piece, a documentary with a political slant, sort of like a Rush Limbaugh piece from the left (but not so full of invective). (By the way, did you really think that our revolutionary founders were conservatives?)
  23. Brownfan80

    Brownfan80 Rookie

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    I noticed in Gon's reply that he slammed the film but did not answer the question that I asked at all.

    I asked which facts were fabricated and which were true. (if 99% of the facts are fabricated I didn't think that it would be that difficult of a question to answer).

    :shrug:

    I am trying very hard not to get caught up in the politics of politics. I'm trying to find the truth without having to worry about red or blue colors getting involved. I'm not a left or right winger. I'm an American trying to finally wake up and find out what is happening in his country.
  24. Brownfan80

    Brownfan80 Rookie

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    Being that I came into the film from neither wing it was easy for me to see the bias. But it was the facts that struck me, not his presentation of them. (I actually even rolled my eyes at his obvious right-bashing at points, but still came away from the film furious at the current state of our administration)

    I was hoping to get some clarification of the facts of the movie, but so far all I've read is a political-view slam fest.

    I don't care one iota about red or blue. I care about the truth.
  25. Brownfan80

    Brownfan80 Rookie

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    It was a movie. I know that. But at the same time it was based on real world events. Moore is a film maker, I'm aware of it. But again that's an attack of the film, not the facts presented within it.
  26. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    That's because it's ridiculous to think I am going to list all the statements from a feature length documentary. There have actually been some good website references posted in this thread, so you should follow up on those.
    Well, if that is your honest intent then I highly advise you to stay away from anything Michael Moore says or does.
  27. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    Do you really think they would support gay marriage..?
  28. Brownfan80

    Brownfan80 Rookie

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    What does that have to do with F911? :confused:
  29. Brownfan80

    Brownfan80 Rookie

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    I'm going to utilize those references. My point was that you slam the movie based on your already decided view while I am still developing my view. I need reference points and facts, not 'stay away from this or that because it's WRONG!'. That's the **** that the media has been feeding me that I don't want to listen to anymore. I want the truth behind the truth that they feed. I appreciate the links, they might help me find what I'm looking for.

    Let me guess, you suggest that I should watch Fox news? Every extreme right winger that I've got a response from (I posted this on other websites too) has said those two things.

    Stay away from Moore. Watch an unbiased news source like Fox News.

    I see that staying away from political angles and getting to facts is going to be harder than I thought.
  30. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    Michael Moore is a fat pig :D . When he talks, writes, or produces you must apply massive grains of salt. He's a Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter type, that is an extremist, who uses twisted truths to make a partisan, or slanted point. Does his BS mean that he is incapable of making a valid point? No, not at all. It simply means that you cannot take him at his word the vast majority of the time. Facts are critical when making points, and Mr. Moore is known for fudging them.

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