I don't usually pile on BOB, but...

[Dutchmaster617]

I'm as pi-ssed as all of you are, but come on, you guys are talking like you want Brady traded! It sucks, yeah, but we're a building team.

This is like the AFC Championship game of 06 vs. the Colts. Expect a host of weapons to come in next year.

I doubt it, this is the same O line that the Giants beat the hell out of, they kept it the same and they are now 0-2 in the playoffs against what the AFC has become, a group of good defenses.

As for our defense, they thought we could win with young guys but it is obvious we can't make the SB without those vets. By the time this group is considered experienced Brady will have to pull a Kurt Warner or he will probably never make the SB again. I have zero confidence in just about every part of the team outside of Brady and Bill.

 

[Kontradiction]

Sometimes you have to take what the defense is giving you. The Jets were conceding the run, they were all game, to specifically stop Tom Brady.

When you get an early lead, the other team has to catch up and do more throwing, which plays into a defenses hands if they want to focus on stopping the pass, which they know is coming.

O'Brien does not

- Play defense, esp the defense that made Sanchez look like a credible QB ( and frankly on the basis of his other games, he does not)
- Throw interceptions
- Play D line and fail to keep hitting the enemy QB
- Drop TD passes
- Muff a fake punt play

This is the limitation of the RBBC theory that the Patriots and many teams use. It's cheaper and more practical to split carries and use a 3rd down back, a COP back and a two down runner in rotation. You don't need an all world guy or set of guy. You don't have to pay them as much. They can be disposable assets. The problem is like this game here, when you need a bell cow who can be a home run back and lift a team on his shoulders. Revis is a great cover corner. Let's see how he likes being a constant run defender.

Did people forget that the Patriots beat the Rams, the vaunted Greatest Show On Turf in a Superbowl? Pass intensive offense isn't everything.

The problem is you can't do smashmouth and grind the ball on the ground with a guy like Law Firm and only two road graders in Vollmer and Mankins, where Mankins seems to play at his worst in the biggest games.

If you want to blame the Patriots, it's for not starting the the ground sooner and sticking with it. Hard to give Brady fits with disguises when you are playing D and tired and worn from being hit all the time with a power rushing attack.

Enough of this air dart ninja surgical strike crap via a pass heavy spread inspired offense. Just ground and pound and punch someone in the mouth. Start carpet bombing as an offense. Chew up the ground in front of you. Maybe I'm just old school, but I believe if you keep hitting someone, good things are gonna happen.

If you can't run the ball when it counts ( early game, control the clock, punish the D), you can't win playoff football. There's a reason why the Eagles and Colts, teams that can't run for ****, are always spending January thinking about the NFL draft instead of going deep in the playoffs and winning Superbowls.

Nobody is saying that the execution wasn't off. It was, as is always the case in a loss. But the coaching was uncommonly terrible yesterday as well. It's been beaten to death a thousand times in this thread and other threads so I won't go into step by step detail on what the coaching staff messed up on. I'm sure you already have an idea. As for Mankins, I have no idea what you watched. I thought the left side of the line generally did a good job while Koppen and Connolly were absolutely horrible. Mankins didn't have a good game in the Super Bowl a few years back, but he had a pretty good game last year against the Ravens (from what I can remember) and was opening up running lanes left and right against the Jets yesterday. He needs to be signed... yesterday.

 

[sarge]

Re: How do you feel about The 4th quarter 7 minute drive

That drive was just inexplicable.

I could not for the life of me understand why they where not in hurry up mode.

Not even just becuase they were down two scores, but to freaking change it up, try to get the defense on it's heels a little bit.

There was NO sense of urgency. It was like they where trying to kill the clock

I was actually started to wonder if the Pats where throwing the game.

It reminded me of Super Bowl 39 when the Eagles where down by 2 scores in the 4th and kept going to the huddle.

 

[sieglo]

Re: How do you feel about The 4th quarter 7 minute drive

Furthermore, if Brady had thrown to the end zone or away instead of throwing to Welker in the flat right before the 2 minute warning, the Patriots would not have had to do an onsides kick, and they would have gotten the ball back from the Jets with 1:30 seconds left.

Yeah, that was one that killed me. Or if Wlker had ran another three feet and had gotten out of bounds.

In past years, the Pats wouldn't have made mistakes like this. Just bad mojo this year for some reason.

 

[gzathepat]

Pouncey moved to center after his brother left Florida and was drafted by the Steelers. Trust me when I say that you do NOT want Pouncey at center. A big part of Florida's offensive issues this year were the snaps from center to QB. A lot of times the snap was high (even snapping it over Brantley's head a lot of times) and it threw off the timing of the offense. Pouncey is a natural RG and the only reason he's listed at center is because that was the position he played (poorly) this year. Put him at RG and our running game instantly improves on the right side.

I was about to say this too. I live in SEC country (Georgia) and I don't want Pouncey anywhere near the football. Then again a year with Dante could help.

 

[Deus Irae]

Of course he needs to be the back-up. Anybody that thought he should be the starter from the get-go just got a reminder of why he shouldn't have been.

I agree, but there were plenty of people on the "Screw Mankins, Connolly's good enough" bandwagon, and they were fine with Connolly when he moved over to RG, too. As you said, this is the sort of game that shows us why that's not the case.

 

[51Hits]

Re: How do you feel about The 4th quarter 7 minute drive

I was screaming at my tv the whole time.

It's one thing to come here and say this on here in hindsight.

I can literally feel my head getting hot as I type this. Because I knew that long drive was going to bite us by the time we got it down to the 6 minute mark i was just screaming hurry up. Makes your blood absolutely boil when you predicted the train wreck as it happened:bricks:

 

[Keyser Söze]

Re: How do you feel about The 4th quarter 7 minute drive

I was screaming at my tv the whole time.

It's one thing to come here and say this on here in hindsight.

I can literally feel my head getting hot as I type this. Because I knew that long drive was going to bite us by the time we got it down to the 6 minute mark i was just screaming hurry up. Makes your blood absolutely boil when you predicted the train wreck as it happened:bricks:

I was screaming "Hurry up" too. Actually it was Hurry the **** UP!!!!!!

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: How do you feel about The 4th quarter 7 minute drive

I was screaming at my tv the whole time.

It's one thing to come here and say this on here in hindsight.

I can literally feel my head getting hot as I type this. Because I knew that long drive was going to bite us by the time we got it down to the 6 minute mark i was just screaming hurry up. Makes your blood absolutely boil when you predicted the train wreck as it happened:bricks:

Another terrible coaching decision in a big pile of them yesterday.

 

[jays52]

When they lose, it becomes so apparent that once the initial plan is answered, he is completely effed. He really isn't a smart guy and it is so GD obvious. God does that p!ss me off.

 

[RHbT76]

When they lose, it becomes so apparent that once the initial plan is answered, he is completely effed. He really isn't a smart guy and it is so GD obvious. God does that p!ss me off.

Yep. Belichick is crazy for not trying to get a legit coordinator here. Get Weis back here for Christ-sakes!

 

[Kontradiction]

Yep. Belichick is crazy for not trying to get a legit coordinator here. Get Weis back here for Christ-sakes!

Too late. He's already going to Florida.

 

[jays52]

It's so true. Say what you will about Weiss, but in the crunch when the initial delegation was foiled he could actually adapt and adjust.

 

[andrewgarrr]

When they lose, it becomes so apparent that once the initial plan is answered, he is completely effed. He really isn't a smart guy and it is so GD obvious. God does that p!ss me off.

I agree with this sentiment 100%.

The Patriots were having their way with the Jets in their first two drives (an INT and a dropped pass ultimately ended them). Then the Jets seemed to adjust to whatever the Patriots were doing, and the Patriots didn't have an answer. It's obvious that the adjustments, if any were even made, did not work. Many times Brady sat back shifting around in the pocket and looking for the open receiver. The pressure from the Jets defense was not only because the interior offensive line was getting beat, but the receivers were not getting open quickly enough.

The offensive game plan lacked a plan-B. What to do when the Jets took away what we were doing? Attacking the middle of the field was not an option after the 1st quarter. Running the ball is a feasible and good adjustment when the defense is playing in nickel and dime packages. But in the fourth quarter when you're down two scores... the adjustment came far too late.

I'm not putting all the blame on the offensive coaches, but they certainly own a large fraction of it. If those first two drives end with 14 Patriots points, I'm sure the offensive coaches wouldn't be put in such a difficult position either. But as a coach, you have to be prepared for situations where things do not go according to plan. This is extremely frustrating.

 

[RHbT76]

Too late. He's already going to Florida.

Yeah I know I was just using him as an example. But honestly if there is a way to get him to break his contract it and come here it would be worth it.

If not we should find someone else who can run an offense and knows how to make adjustments to what the defense is doing.

 

[Deus Irae]

I agree with this sentiment 100%.

The Patriots were having their way with the Jets in their first two drives (an INT and a dropped pass ultimately ended them). Then the Jets seemed to adjust to whatever the Patriots were doing, and the Patriots didn't have an answer. It's obvious that the adjustments, if any were even made, did not work. Many times Brady sat back shifting around in the pocket and looking for the open receiver. The pressure from the Jets defense was not only because the interior offensive line was getting beat, but the receivers were not getting open quickly enough.

The offensive game plan lacked a plan-B. What to do when the Jets took away what we were doing? Attacking the middle of the field was not an option after the 1st quarter. Running the ball is a feasible and good adjustment when the defense is playing in nickel and dime packages. But in the fourth quarter when you're down two scores... the adjustment came far too late.

I'm not putting all the blame on the offensive coaches, but they certainly own a large fraction of it. If those first two drives end with 14 Patriots points, I'm sure the offensive coaches wouldn't be put in such a difficult position either. But as a coach, you have to be prepared for situations where things do not go according to plan. This is extremely frustrating.

It wasn't a failure to adapt that had Welker and Branch dropping passes, and it wasn't a failure to adapt that had Brady afraid to run, missing open receivers right in his line of sight, and getting happy feet against a pass rush.

BOB screwed up some yesterday, and he deserves to be called out. But the "adapt" argument just doesn't hold water, IMO. That was the same argument that people fell back on in Jets/Pats 1, and it wasn't true then either. There was certainly no problem adapting in the Lions and Packers games. The playcalling problems yesterday were inherent in the main plan itself. It wasn't an adaptation problem that screwed the pooch on the screen pass, for example.

 

[jays52]

It wasn't a failure to adapt that had Welker and Branch dropping passes, and it wasn't a failure to adapt that had Brady afraid to run, missing open receivers right in his line of sight, and getting happy feet against a pass rush.

BOB screwed up some yesterday, and he deserves to be called out. But the "adapt" argument just doesn't hold water, IMO. That was the same argument that people fell back on in Jets/Pats 1, and it wasn't true then either. There was certainly no problem adapting in the Lions and Packers games. The playcalling problems yesterday were inherent in the main plan itself. It wasn't an adaptation problem that screwed the pooch on the screen pass, for example.

Alright, obviously you know there is a lot of respect here, but I just disagree with that. I think that the GB and Detriot adjustments were minor execution ones that, even while there were some schematic things going on didn't fundamentally challenge the premise of the offense. Pats/Jets 1? Challenged the fundamental premise of the offense. Pats/Jets 3? Challenged the fundamental premise of the offense. They want to flood the interior and man up outside? Great! Flex Gronk out next to Branch and have him hammer the ever living Christ out of Revis until they go zone outside. When they do go zone, run a quick slip screen off the hitch/arrow that you were just running. Force them to respect the hashes and sidelines or blitz to disrupt and clog. When they do that, go back to working the interior. Let's assume the greatest issue that would clog the adjustments; a limited playsheet. Go to the sidelines, assign your basic nomenclature to protection, motion, and route then name them one through three.

Obviously execution matters tremendously, but there is always an answer for poor execution through simplification, forcing a string of adjustments, and ultimately arriving back at the initial gameplan. Is it easier said than done? Yes, but it's a lot easier to find brain power than it is a 6'3 235lb split end that gets coverage and runs a 4.2.

 

[stavros27]

The coaching as a whole was terrible in this game. From start to finish. The fake punt call that never should have been was probably one of the worst calls of BB's career. The abundance of running plays with five minutes left in the game. And now, the onside kick when they should have kicked it off and put the ball in the defense's hands. In all, we were thoroughly outcoached and outplayed in this game. Just a pathetic excuse for a game on our side.

All of that "we don't talk through the media, we let our play do the talking" is fine when you actually show up for the game that you're supposed to play. But you look like a bunch of ******* ****ies when you don't talk and get your teeth kicked in. And that's what we looked like today. A bunch of ****ies.

As a fairly neutral observer who has followed the Pats closely, especially more since the Moss trade in 2007, you nailed every thought I had about their performance. Kudos for not trying to sugarcoat it or defend the numerous horrrible decisions. Last night Bilichek coached the way a team trying to beat the Pats would coach, making stupid decisions that hurt his own team rather than letting forcing the opponent to make the mistakes. It was odd seeing him making the bad decisions this time around.

 

[Deus Irae]

Alright, obviously you know there is a lot of respect here, but I just disagree with that. I think that the GB and Detriot adjustments were minor execution ones that, even while there were some schematic things going on didn't fundamentally challenge the premise of the offense. Pats/Jets 1? Challenged the fundamental premise of the offense. Pats/Jets 3? Challenged the fundamental premise of the offense. They want to flood the interior and man up outside? Great! Flex Gronk out next to Branch and have him hammer the ever living Christ out of Revis until they go zone outside. When they do go zone, run a quick slip screen off the hitch/arrow that you were just running. Force them to respect the hashes and sidelines or blitz to disrupt and clog. When they do that, go back to working the interior. Let's assume the greatest issue that would clog the adjustments; a limited playsheet. Go to the sidelines, assign your basic nomenclature to protection, motion, and route then name them one through three.

Obviously execution matters tremendously, but there is always an answer for poor execution through simplification, forcing a string of adjustments, and ultimately arriving back at the initial gameplan. Is it easier said than done? Yes, but it's a lot easier to find brain power than it is a 6'3 235lb split end that gets coverage and runs a 4.2.

Just my $.02 for a follow up:

What we saw yesterday was what some of us here were warning could happen with this offense. With nobody able to force the safeties back, the Jets were able to press every receiver on the line when they chose to. Cromartie, for all that people here have spent the year bagging on the guy, played well enough to make the 1-2 combo with Revis deadly to the Patriots wideouts overall success, and Brady lost his cool after the INT, and was not the same QB after that.

But the screen pass wasn't an adjustment to the Jets getting up. The decision to basically sit BJGE wasn't an adjustment to the Jets getting up (Hell, that's one we've seen this team doing with the RB1 since 2007). That stuff was about flaws in the initial strategy. Hell, the smartest thing they did all game was an adjustment that's getting pounded on in the message boards and that BB was pissed off about on the sidelines, and that's the change to the running game at the start of the 4th quarter. It was 3 straight pass plays (2nd-4th down) that killed that drive. If they'd just kept running the ball, they'd likely have scored with plenty of time left in the game, and only been down by a field goal. Belichick made a mistake there, and got on BOB about running the ball, and it cost the team.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[jays52]

What we saw yesterday was what some of us here were warning could happen with this offense. With nobody able to force the safeties back, the Jets were able to press every receiver on the line when they chose to. Cromartie, for all that people here have spent the year bagging on the guy, played well enough to make the 1-2 combo with Revis deadly to the Patriots wideouts overall success, and Brady lost his cool after the INT, and was not the same QB after that.

But the screen pass wasn't an adjustment to the Jets getting up. The decision to basically sit BJGE wasn't an adjustment to the Jets getting up (Hell, that's one we've seen this team doing with the RB1 since 2007). That stuff was about flaws in the initial strategy. Hell, the smartest thing they did all game was an adjustment that's getting pounded on in the message boards and that BB was pissed off about on the sidelines, and that's the change to the running game at the start of the 4th quarter. It was 3 straight pass plays (2nd-4th down) that killed that drive. If they'd just kept running the ball, they'd likely have scored with plenty of time left in the game, and only been down by a field goal. Belichick made a mistake there, and got on BOB about running the ball, and it cost the team.

Yeah, that's a great point. Can't argue with that.