I don't understand the Daniel Graham Situation

[Keegs]

It seems to me that the majority of the people on here are certain that we will not resign him. I hear things like "planning for the future" to justify these beliefs. Must have somethinng to do with the fact that we drafted 2 TEs in mills and Thomas.
I also hear other comments like "oh well i was hoping it would be Watson and Graham in the future but it doesn't look that way".

Ok I'm lost. None of this makes sense to me. We lost Fauria. We have Watson and Graham. We drafted Thomas as a Te and pretty much everything i read says that Mills would be fullback. I read about how people speculate that we will run lots of 2 Te sets. Who is going to be in there, thomas and watson? I don't think so. We need thomas as a backup TE. Thats why we drafted him. The fact that mills was liisted as a TE on some sites and the top fullback on others leads me ot believe he can possible play both in the NFL, but i think he'll play fullback. And he could be our 4th string te if things get nasty with injuries.

I don't believe for a second that we will trade or release Graham, we are resigning hm. There is no way BB will let the best blocking TE in football leave.

If anyone can explain with any kind of proof whatsoever why we are not keeping Graham, please fill me in, because i really don't understand what leads some people on here to believe that he's gone.

IT seems obvious that we wouldn't let him go.

anybody?????????

 

[wrangler]

The only way DG leaves is: a) He doesn't want to be a Pat anymore
b) He prices himself out of the Pats market,
which could be a result of a.?

I really don't think we want to get rid of him.?

 

[patsox23]

Keegs, I hear you. I think the thing with Graham may be based more on rumblings about his contract situation - and the fact we haven't addressed extending him - than on the drafting of Thomas. I think perhaps drafting David Thomas is reflective of where they are (or MIGHT be) with Graham's contract issues. Who knows, though, you may be right - and we may be happy - that Graham will be re-signed after this season. I certainly hope so.

 

[Pats726]

The tthomas situation has nothing to do with Graham....Graham a blocking tight end...the best in the league. Thomas..more of a receivin TE..one of the best in the draft at catching passes..Thomas brought in to replace Fauria..NOT Graham. I do hope the re-sign him.

 

[Keegs]

yeah i look at this year as the same TEs as last year, but with With the Wendy's guy as our third stringer instead of Fauria. Mills could play fullback and TE in emergency.

At this point i think want to see Graham resigned more than Branch. Its just a personal preference. I understand we are thin at WR, but hes not the best at what he does.

 

[Brarrell]

Keegs, I hear you. I think the thing with Graham may be based more on rumblings about his contract situation - and the fact we haven't addressed extending him - than on the drafting of Thomas. I think perhaps drafting David Thomas is reflective of where they are (or MIGHT be) with Graham's contract issues. Who knows, though, you may be right - and we may be happy - that Graham will be re-signed after this season. I certainly hope so.

Once again the Pats FO creates all these rumors with the way they do business with their players. They have 16.5 mil in cap space a group of young talented players who are battle tested and have rings so are we going to let Branch,Graham,Koppen if healthy and Samuel go. We already know if you let guys like Givens hit the market their gone because we won't match these offers these guys get. You just can't let players quality players go and think you can draft and replace them all it just doesn't work that way not consistantly. Brady and Seymore are in the prime of their careers for the 4-5 years so lets take advantage and make the run for as many rings as we can get.

 

[JoeSixPat]

First of all, speculation that Graham -in the last year of his contract - might not be back next year isn't just idle speculation of members on this board.

After the last draft that saw the Patriots take another TE (two if you count Mills) after using two #1 picks in 2002 & 2004 on TEs, reporters for the Boston Globe, Boston Herald, Patriots Insider, and a few other NFL websites began to speculate that the moves might signify the team preparing for life without Graham.

We've got Graham pretty cheap right now and depending on what Graham's salary demands are (will he demand to be treated like a former #1 pick? Will he demand a major bump in salary knowing the new CBA has increased the cap?) they speculate that BB might not want to triple Graham's salary.

Trade rumors involving Graham - again based on speculation he'd be gone next year anyway - have fueled interest in his value and what his salary demands might be.

While everyone likes to note that Thomas is only a rookie, we effectively were planning on playing Graham and a rookie (Watson) in 2004, keeping Fauria as a third veteran string backup in case of injury - which of course took place.

Generally the trend has been to have 3 TEs on the squad, though really only 2 get a lot of reps. One rookie, and two veterans.

That's what we have this year as well - though as of next year Thomas won't be a rookie anymore.

So while BB might be bluffing, he's using actual draft picks as cards, and the team will be in a good negotiating position if Graham's agent is expecting $3mil plus a season.

 

[mgteich]

When a player enters the last year of his contract, he is in his contract year. It should not be a surprise that such a player would like to see what he is worth before signing with anyone. This is not idle speculation, it is reality. Some players and teams are able to sign an extension before the last years starts, with both parties gaining and losing by the early signing.

It is true that we needed Thomas and Mills to replace Fauria and Evans. However, it is also true that we will be prepared if the team and Graham choose to part company.

That being said, I would prefer an extension of Graham to any of the other extensions. His skill set is a perfect fit for the New England offensive philosophy.

 

[jczxohn1]

When a player enters the last year of his contract, he is in his contract year. It should not be a surprise that such a player would like to see what he is worth before signing with anyone. This is not idle speculation, it is reality. Some players and teams are able to sign an extension before the last years starts, with both parties gaining and losing by the early signing.

It is true that we needed Thomas and Mills to replace Fauria and Evans. However, it is also true that we will be prepared if the team and Graham choose to part company.

That being said, I would prefer an extension of Graham to any of the other extensions. His skill set is a perfect fit for the New England offensive philosophy.

All true. Another factor, however, in dealing with the possibility of losing Graham is the strong attempt to bolster the O-line, particularly with big bodies, lessing the need for Graham's blocking skills.

 

[rookBoston]

It is true that we needed Thomas and Mills to replace Fauria and Evans. However, it is also true that we will be prepared if the team and Graham choose to part company.

As is generally the case, mg, we see eye to eye on this. One difference in opinion, tho:

IMO, Thomas and Mills were drafted to replace Fauria and Chatham, not Faura and Evans. Evans was quality backfill off the street to cover for injuries at the position. Chatham was part of the core fabric of the team. How can a TE/FB (Mills) replace a LB (Chatham)? Well, because Chatham's bread an butter was ST coverage. That, I expect, is where Mills will cut his teeth for us-- in the same way that Pass did as a young player.

 

[maverick4]

re

Graham will price himself out of re-signing with the Pats. The Pats drafted 2 TE's, lowering his leverage, but he will still try to get 'fair' value.

Mills does not replace Evans, that is ludicrous! He was drafted to become a Chris Cooley / Keith Byars type of tight end, or H-back. The offense won't be a standard 2-TE formation, but 1 standard TE (Watson) and 1 guy who goes in motion a lot (Thomas or Mills).

Graham has been a great blocker in the past, but...I guess I am in the minority in saying that Graham's blocking is becoming a little over-rated on this board. I don't think pass protection will be affected much if we lose him. Brady is still amazing at reading the blitz, moving around the pocket, and getting the ball out quickly. We have seriously upgraded our O-Line compared to how it was in 2001 (or even 03, 04). Ben Watson is no slouch at blocking, he is improving, and I think he will end up a better overall tight end. Finally, Corey Dillon and Maroney can hold their own in pass protection.

 

[JoeSixPat]

IMO, Thomas and Mills were drafted to replace Fauria and Chatham, not Faura and Evans.

I've never looked at it as drafting one player to replace another.... since we don't draft based solely on need its impossible to make such statements...

additionally, the draft is not the only place to acquire players...

there's FA, trades and camp cuts that can provide backup depth too

 

[spacecrime]

Mills does not replace Evans, that is ludicrous! He was drafted to become a Chris Cooley / Keith Byars type of tight end, or H-back.

Ludicrous?

Don't think of Mills as a TE because he played TE in college. He came out as a FB, not a TE.

As long as you think of Mills as a TE, you won't grasp the situation. It is like saying Bruschi is a DT. He isn't, not since he left Arizona. And if you try to make sense of a roster with Bruschi on the DLine and Mills as a TE, you will be forever confounded.

 

[maverick4]

re

Ludicrous?

Don't think of Mills as a TE because he played TE in college. He came out as a FB, not a TE.

As long as you think of Mills as a TE, you won't grasp the situation. It is like saying Bruschi is a DT. He isn't, not since he left Arizona. And if you try to make sense of a roster with Bruschi on the DLine and Mills as a TE, you will be forever confounded.

?? Not really. Bruschi was a college DE who became a linebacker. Why is it so hard to believe that Mills will be an motion a lot as a TE? I don't care what a player came out as, I am trying to project what he would be most useful as.

When was the last time you saw the Pats use a blocking fullback lined up in a non-goal line situation? It almost never happens anymore.
I think it's a little more complicated than 'Thomas replaces Fauria and Mills replaces Evans'.

 

[mgteich]

rook,

I don't know why you consider Evans a "quality" backfill. In any case, I don't see him with a roster spot. We usually don't keep a spot for a fullback, and I'd rather have Pass as a backup running back (as I think you would).

As you indicate, we keep spots for special teamers. I have no problem considering both Pass and Mills as special teamers, or even Pass as a 4th running back.

I do believe that Mills was brought in as an hback/fullback as well as a special teamer. He was the best fullback in the draft. He is a threat as a receiver out of the backfield. Was he the best special teamer? Could we have gotten a better special teamer at another position?

As is generally the case, mg, we see eye to eye on this. One difference in opinion, tho:

IMO, Thomas and Mills were drafted to replace Fauria and Chatham, not Faura and Evans. Evans was quality backfill off the street to cover for injuries at the position. Chatham was part of the core fabric of the team. How can a TE/FB (Mills) replace a LB (Chatham)? Well, because Chatham's bread an butter was ST coverage. That, I expect, is where Mills will cut his teeth for us-- in the same way that Pass did as a young player.

 

[Bostonian1962]

It seems to me that the majority of the people on here are certain that we will not resign him. I hear things like "planning for the future" to justify these beliefs. Must have somethinng to do with the fact that we drafted 2 TEs in mills and Thomas.
I also hear other comments like "oh well i was hoping it would be Watson and Graham in the future but it doesn't look that way".

Ok I'm lost. None of this makes sense to me. We lost Fauria. We have Watson and Graham. We drafted Thomas as a Te and pretty much everything i read says that Mills would be fullback. I read about how people speculate that we will run lots of 2 Te sets. Who is going to be in there, thomas and watson? I don't think so. We need thomas as a backup TE. Thats why we drafted him. The fact that mills was liisted as a TE on some sites and the top fullback on others leads me ot believe he can possible play both in the NFL, but i think he'll play fullback. And he could be our 4th string te if things get nasty with injuries.

I don't believe for a second that we will trade or release Graham, we are resigning hm. There is no way BB will let the best blocking TE in football leave.

If anyone can explain with any kind of proof whatsoever why we are not keeping Graham, please fill me in, because i really don't understand what leads some people on here to believe that he's gone.

IT seems obvious that we wouldn't let him go.

anybody?????????

Keegs, finally some common sense. Graham is going no where, IMO. These internet stories are laughable. At least if somebody is going to invent a trade story for Graham don't have him going to a major AFC contender.

Graham is so valuable to BB and Co., and if he isn't re-signed, it won't be because they didn't try their best.

Good post Keegs.

 

[AzPatsFan]

As is generally the case, mg, we see eye to eye on this. One difference in opinion, tho:

IMO, Thomas and Mills were drafted to replace Fauria and Chatham, not Faura and Evans. Evans was quality backfill off the street to cover for injuries at the position. Chatham was part of the core fabric of the team. How can a TE/FB (Mills) replace a LB (Chatham)? Well, because Chatham's bread an butter was ST coverage. That, I expect, is where Mills will cut his teeth for us-- in the same way that Pass did as a young player.

I disagree. I think BB has always wanted an accomplished Pass receiving FB/H back type of player. He tried to get a Richie Anderson to sign with the Pats, and Tuna took him. He signed Larry Centers when he was literally on his last legs. Kieth Byers was around as was Kevin Turner when BB was a Coach and he saw what a weapon these guys can be to keep drives alive.

He is using Kevin Faulk as that pass receiver, but KF is 30 and was hurt las a portion of the season. Having two of them, KF & GM, on a third down, more than doubles the pressure on the Defense, IMO.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Graham is so valuable to BB and Co., and if he isn't re-signed, it won't be because they didn't try their best.

I guess eventually we'll find out how much they value Graham...

Still, its always confusing to me - if the guy is the best blocker on the team and a decent pass catcher, why BB puts in defensive players for him on goal line situations so often.

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

I get the feeling that Graham will be tagged in February. I just don't see the Pats letting him walk for nothing.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

If Graham resigns with the Pats it will be on Belichick's terms, i.e. he will be payed less then tight ends who catch lots of balls, because Graham still drops easily catchable balls. Unless he knows that the ball is coming to him beforehand, his chance of catching it goes way down. He can be replaced as a blocker by another good blocker, like a back-up lineman such as Tom Ashworth did last year when Graham went down.
My wife is all upset that they could trade Graham, but even if they don't, Graham is not going to be happy with the offer he gets to stay, since he doesn't contribute heavily in the passing game. If he was Antonio Gates, we wouldn't need Vrabel running pass routes.
I know it is sentimental to say that Graham won't be gone, but look at the recent history of Pioli negotiations. Graham will not get the money he wants, unless he is willing to take a 'hometown discount'. They might as well trade him if they think he'll be gone next year. They probably have already given him an offer, like they usually do, and if they aren't even close to what the agent wants, the player is usually gone. This is the cold as ice approach of the Pioli front office! But it works sometimes....