How's this for a trade re: Santana

[BradyManny]

I completely agree. I like Ellsbury and wouldn't want to trade him, but if the deal came down to one or the other I would much rather keep Buccholz, and the choice isn't even close. Ellsbury's numbers are that of a very good CF. Buchholz's numbers are that of an ace. Buchholz has better numbers across the board in the minors than Papelbon, and pretty much any other Sox pitching prospect since Clemens. Unless Buchholz plays well below his minor league stats while Ellsbury plays well above his, Buchholz should be the more valuable player. .

Agreed. And along the same line of thinking - Buchholz could even exceed the lofty expectations - there's room for improvement in his fastball command, and that's a better weakness to have than say the inability to throw multiple pitches. Meanwhile, I don't think Ellsbury can really exceed his potential unless he magically shows signs of power.

 

[BradyManny]

I wouldn't move Buchholz or Ellsbury. I would move Lester and Crisp though.

I'd trade Lester because Santanna is a lefty, and it's probably a bad idea to have too much left handed starting pitching. Lester is more proven anyways, so why not hold onto our players with potential? We're already getting a sure thing in Santanna.

I agree with your logic...but as I stated above, I still don't do the deal if for any reason other than principle and or money.

 

[Foley]

I think people are underestimating the value of Ellsbury. He doesn't need to hit for tremendous power to make an impact. He is a legit leadoff hitter. Did you see what him and Pedroia did to the Rockies as a 1-2 combo? It was ridiculous.

Ellsbury has the patience to be a true leadoff hitter, he has bat skills, and he has the speed to turn any blooper into a hit. He can steal bases, he can field nearly as well as Crisp (a gold glover), he's the complete package as a #1 hitter. If I would compare him, it would be to Grady Sizemore.

I'm not underestimating his value, I just think that Buchholz has more value.

And Sizemore can hit 25+ HR a season. Ellsbury has never hit close to that. Sizemore showed in the minors that he had the ability to post a .480SLG while Ellsbury has never topped .425 (other than the SSS in his call-up). This isn't to say that power is necessary for a leadoff hitter and a leadoff hitter without power isn't valuable, just that he shouldn't be compared to someone that has power as a big part of their game. I still think that mid-90s Kenny Lofton is the best comparison: little power, very good on-base skills, and the ability to steal 50+ bases a season.

 

[Bigdogx]

If the twins are absolutely dumb enough to let Santana go for the combination of Lowrie, Masterson, Crisp and Lester you make that trade with absolutely no regrets and as quickly as you can.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Wow, I'd be surprised if that was the trade.

I agree - that strikes me as a ploy by the Twins to let the Yankees know they need to up the ante.

The Yankees are desparate for an ace and will likely pay anything, along with the $25 mil a year.

Although I guess this is all academic as from what I've read in this thread, the Twins aren't actually interested in trading Santana.

 

[scout]

Why do you think this? Ellsbury has hit a total of 13HR since joining the Red Sox organization in 2005. His power may improve, but what gives you the indication that he'd ever hit more than 15HR a season, or that he'd ever come close to the 25 a season that Lynn averaged? Ellsbury should be a very good player, but they have two very different skill sets.

I'm comparing Ellsbury to Lynn because he is the closest player that the Red Sox have had to compare. He may not have Lynn's power, but will make up for that with his speed. Ellsbury is going to cause all kinds of problems for infielders. He will be able to safely lay down a bunt. Infield comes in, he will hit it past them. When on base, he will steal, again, again, and again. He will score a lot of runs. This is the type of player in a playoff game that announcers will talk about being a tough out, and they can not walk him. This guy wasn't even phased at being in the World Series and its his rookie year next year.

 

[Foley]

Although I guess this is all academic as from what I've read in this thread, the Twins aren't actually interested in trading Santana.

Where exactly was this argued? I don't recall anyone saying the Twins aren't interested in trading Johan.

I'm comparing Ellsbury to Lynn because he is the closest player that the Red Sox have had to compare. He may not have Lynn's power, but will make up for that with his speed. Ellsbury is going to cause all kinds of problems for infielders. He will be able to safely lay down a bunt. Infield comes in, he will hit it past them. When on base, he will steal, again, again, and again. He will score a lot of runs. This is the type of player in a playoff game that announcers will talk about being a tough out, and they can not walk him. This guy wasn't even phased at being in the World Series and its his rookie year next year.

I agree completely that he should be a great player and you don't have to spell out his virtues to me, I just don't think that the comparison with Lynn holds any water. An outfielder with 25+ HR power is not a similar player to an outfielder with 50+ SB.

 

[scout]

I agree completely that he should be a great player and you don't have to spell out his virtues to me, I just don't think that the comparison with Lynn holds any water. An outfielder with 25+ HR power is not a similar player to an outfielder with 50+ SB.

Ok. Ellsbury is not comparable to any player in Red Sox history. He is a phenom that will wreck havoc on opposing teams sometimes beating them single handily.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Where exactly was this argued? I don't recall anyone saying the Twins aren't interested in trading Johan.I agree completely that he should be a great player and you don't have to spell out his virtues to me, I just don't think that the comparison with Lynn holds any water. An outfielder with 25+ HR power is not a similar player to an outfielder with 50+ SB.

I'm just teasing

As of last week you'd said that 14 out of 15 GMs expected that the Twins would re-sign Santana and PatriotsPride said he would be re-signed because trading their best player would be a slap in the face to everyone who just agreed to fund a new stadium and they needed the revenue that Santana would bring by filling seats.

I felt you were both working off of old information as by that time it had pretty much been established that the Twins were willing participants in trade discussions.

Hey, none of us can rule out any possibility... who knows - maybe the Twins feel like the best move is to hold him, see how their season begins to pan out and trade him before the July 31st deadline, still getting the prospects they want.

They'd be risking injury on Santana's part but the thought he'd not produce isn't all that realistic.

Of course long term I think they've already decided it makes sense to get players and prospects into their offseason/pre-season program and I'd tend to agree with that.

 

[Foley]

Ok. Ellsbury is not comparable to any player in Red Sox history. He is a phenom that will wreck havoc on opposing teams sometimes beating them single handily.

Or just compare him to Kenny Lofton. He wasn't ever with the Red Sox, but hes still the best comparison to Ellsbury that I've heard.

As of last week you'd said that 14 out of 15 GMs expected that the Twins would re-sign Santana and PatriotsPride said he would be re-signed because trading their best player would be a slap in the face to everyone who just agreed to fund a new stadium and they needed the revenue that Santana would bring by filling seats.

I felt you were both working off of old information as by that time it had pretty much been established that the Twins were willing participants in trade discussions.

Well the information about the GMs was from earlier this month, so it wasn't that old. Things have clearly changed (actual discussions with the Twins wasn't reported until four days ago), but even now re-signing him is an option if they continue to be low-balled by teams.

And I was really more arguing the fact that the Twins had the resources to re-sign Santana if the felt that they could continue to contend. Not that they would refuse to trade him.