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How's the surge going?

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Patters, Mar 15, 2007.

  1. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If you're wondering how Bush's War on Iraq is going since he flip-flopped and change course with the surge:

    http://icasualties.org/oif/

    This appears to be a pretty good site, and on at least one blog someone claimed that many media outlets rely on it, but I don't know if that's true.
  2. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Flip flopped? You're comical. First it was criticism for "staying the course", and not adapting, or changing tactics, now it's a "flip-flop" for implementing a new security strategy that seems to be working in its early stages. Nah, you want us to succeed though. I know. :rolleyes:


    Fewer Iraq Deaths During Security Sweep

    Tuesday February 27, 2007 11:31 PM


    By KIM GAMEL

    Associated Press Writer

    BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - The Baghdad security operation has been under way less than three weeks, but it has already registered one small success: a sharp drop in the number of bullet-riddled bodies found in the streets - victims of sectarian death squads.

    The number of bodies found so far this month in Baghdad - most of them shot and showing signs of torture - has dropped by nearly 50 percent to 494 as of Monday night, compared with 954 in January and 1,222 in December, according to figures compiled by The Associated Press.

    Since the crackdown was formally launched Feb. 14, a total of 164 bodies had been found in the capital as of Monday, according to AP figures, which are compiled from police reports. The AP count showed 390 bodies were discovered in the same period in January.

    ``The intensive security measures have forced the gunmen to leave Baghdad and quit throwing bodies in the streets,'' said Kamil Abdul-Nour, a 42-year-old Sunni teacher. ``Still, I am afraid that this phenomenon will appear again if the security measures end,'' he said.


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6444923,00.html



    Thursday, 03/15/07

    Baghdad sees signs of progress from surge

    Deaths down, but U.S hesitant to claim success

    By ROBERT H. REID
    Associated Press


    BAGHDAD — Bomb deaths have gone down 30 percent in Baghdad since the U.S.-led security crackdown began a month ago. Execution-style slayings are down by nearly half.

    The once frequent sound of weapons has become episodic, and downtown shoppers have returned to outdoor markets — favored targets of car bombers.There are signs of progress in the campaign to restore order in Iraq, starting with its capital city.

    .....

    Gone are the "illegal checkpoints" at which Shiite and Sunni gunmen stopped cars and hauled away members of the rival sect — often to a gruesome torture and death.

    The rattle of automatic weapons fire or the rumble of distant roadside bombs comes less frequently. Traffic is beginning to return to the city's once vacant streets.

    "People are very optimistic because they sense a development. The level of sectarian violence in streets and areas has decreased," said a 50-year-old Shiite, who gave his name only as Abu Abbas, or "father of Abbas." "The activities of the militias have also decreased. The car bombs and the suicide attacks are the only things left, while other kinds of violence have decreased."

    http://www.dicksonherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070315/NEWS08/703150389
  3. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The link I provided seems to show that violence is more or less the same as it was. We've had many worse months prior to the surge, but also a few better ones.
  4. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    That's some great analysis Patters. Truly in depth. :rolleyes:
  5. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Almost as good as all the links you provided showing that the surge is working :rolleyes:
  6. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    I just posted two in this thread. I hate to say it Patters, but you know about as much about this war as my sisters Bichon Frise. I know though, you actually want us to succeed there. ;)
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2007
  7. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Surrender, the troops will come home and the murdering Muslim Terrorists will follow them, more will die on the streets of America.

    Does the Anti War crowd really believe that the Muslims will stop trying to kill us just because we cave in and surrender in Iraq?
  8. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    For the life of me I still can't understand why someone wouldn't want us to succeed in Iraq. I totally understand why people would be against the war itself, but to be against success is mind boggling.
  9. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Do you have trouble understanding that the issue is over how to succeed in Iraq? You think military operations can succeed; others think diplomacy has a better chance of succeeding. You point to a couple articles that can hardly point to a trend; I point to a website that shows the number of casualties has remained fairly consistent with or without the surge.
  10. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Like I said, you are utterly clueless as to what is going on over there. I'm not surprised though since you only see things one way, Dems right, Repubs wrong. Furthermore, you rely on the select MSM, and left leaning news sources for your information. If you had a clue, you'd know what the specifics of the counterinsurgency plan is all about. You don't though, and I've explained them enough in here to know the Agenda driven will never cede to logic or reason. Like your cohort, Agenda Boy, no matter how many times someone explains a specific perspective, or fact, you will refuse to even attempt to understand it. It's people like you, and your ilk, that makes politics so deplorable in this country. People like you give fuel to the partisanism.
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2007
  11. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Give me a break, RightieWorld, you're as partisan as they come. In case you haven't noticed, most Americans now agree the war wasn't worth it, the troops should come home, and we're not winning. Sure, you can find the occasional good news, but by and large even that news is only based on the fact that we have put in more troops.

    I'm not the one defending a Party line. Many of the leading Democrats, like Hillary, favor keeping some troops there and oppose using legislation to prevent Bush from escalating the mess of a war. Where do you disagree with the Bush administration when it comes to Iraq?

    The plan is unfolding as predicted. As Gates, I think, said, what would happen is that the insurgents would lay low during the surge and might come back after it's over. They are laying lower in Baghdad, but are instead waging their terrorist activities in other parts of Iraq, thus the death toll numbers are still just as bad as before the surge.

    Well, most of the country is coming around to the anti-war thinking. You're still clinging to the past, unwilling to admit how wrong you and other neoconservative Republican loyalists have been with regard to Iraq.
  12. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    All you do is defend party line. You just typed in another thread that centrists have destroyed the Democratic party. You're a joke. When you get a clue, and come away from left=fantastic, right=statanic, I might consider taking your opinion seriously.

    Like I said before, you and Agenda Boy, no matter how many times people explain their position, present a logical arguement backed up by fact, or offer legitimate reason to a discussion, will never cede to anything but your predisposed position.
  13. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Actually, RW, my opinion has changed over time. It has drifted more to the left as the war continues to unfold in the terrible way it has. I don't know what you are referring to when you talk about your logical arguments. Care to point me to a thread or post?
  14. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Yup, I guess you were once supportive right? :rolleyes:

    Chop, chop!
  15. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    They want this President to fail they don't care about succeeding in Iraq, they want Bush humiliated, crucified and destroyed, they will never get over the fact that he is the president and neither one of the two "Goops" that they nominated are.
  16. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Harry, for some people, that is exactly the case.
  17. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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    #80 Jersey

  18. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Interesting point. The media would have you believe that the reports on the news, the articles, and everything they tell you is a first hand account of what they've seen, when in fact, it isn't. I find that disturbing. All of the reports are done through Iraqi's who are paid to supply information. Do they put that in their report? Do they let you know that? Do they coroberate most of the information for accuracy? This is why I read as many sources as possible. Some of you should try the same.
  19. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Here is a blogger who has been embedded with the troops for an extended period. How he happened to get there is an interesting story. You are absolutely correct about the MSM reporters in the Green Zone being clueless.

    http://patdollard.com/

    Here is an artilce from the WaPO where the writer cites opinions of Inraqi's liveing in Baghdad about how things are going.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/09/AR2007030901839.html
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2007

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