How the Pats Offense Will Evolve

[captain stone]

I hope it also eliminates the need to use Hernandez as a running back. It's an effective change up but he runs too high out of the back field and got lit up a few times. He means too much to the offense.

I hope the FB additions means they'll line up in an obvious running situation and ram it down the other team's throat when needed. I'm not adovating 3 yards and a cloud of dust because with this roster that idiotic. But with a 10+ point lead late in the game instead of passing or letting Brady sneak a 3rd and long one and get broken in half by Ray Lewis run the ball. Make them honor it and then play action when needed.

I do hope when teams go really small they show they will commit to the run and force DBs off the field.

But your summary of all they can do is really good.

I heartily agree with, and endorse, everything in this post.

 

[ay-yo]

Thoughts on the offense next year

3 wr / 2 te - Josh likes to go empty IIRC. We didn't have the talent at wr to do this last year but I expect to see this formation substantially more this season (for better or for worse). It is the best way to get our top 5 skill players all on the field at once

1 wr / 3 te / 1 rb - we didn't see this formation too much last year either (no 3rd TE) however I picture it being very successful. We still have a fair amount of pass vs. run flexibility but it's clearly a more run oriented formation. In short yardage situations this will drive defenses nuts.

2 wr / 2 te / 1 rb - the base formation. It will be better b/c of improved wr's. pretty strraightforward

and if god forbid 1 of the TE's get injured I expect the base formation to shift to

3 wr / 1 te / 1 rb - our 3rd WR is better than our 3rd TE, gotta keep the most talented guys on the field. While there would still be a shift in the offense I'm not as frightened of injury as last year.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I have wanted more run/pass balance and more integration since 2009. I'd live to be able to pound the ball occasionally a la 2004. And I'd love more run/pass imagination. But by no stretch of my very vivid imagination can I imagine going to a ground and pound approach as our primary offense.

Neither do I. I am much closer to your opinion, but I would like to know that we could do so if necessary. I thought it was necessary too exagerate a bit and call it "ground and pound" to make people think.

 

[mayoclinic]

An interesting take on the evolution of the offense:

After the 2009 season, Bill Belichick set out to revamp his offense in order to get more diversity than the Randy Moss and Wes Welker show. The model he used was the New Orleans Saints offense that had won the Super Bowl in the 2009 season.

Multiple offensive sets involving the tight ends as a weapon brought the drafting of Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez. Using the TEs in bunch formations and in other non-traditional roles turned the Patriots offense from outside the numbers based to utilizing the hash marks and spreading the ball around more.

The Patriots continued the trend in 2011 to the extent that it was able to carry them to the Super Bowl. Now it’s the WR position's turn as it's the last to get a makeover.

Look for the Patriots to move away from smaller under six feet wide out to taller speedsters that can get down the field for big plays. So what type of receiver will they be looking for? Think the New Orleans Saints, and maybe one of their free agents, Marques Colston could be a possible candidate to land in New England. However, the style of receiver is what we want to focus on:

- 6’0 plus with 4.3 speed
- Ability to digest a deep playbook
- The skill to read coverages and make the adjustment at the line of scrimmage

Colston, Robert Meachum, Lance Moore, and Devery Henderson represent the most explosive WR corps in the NFL. They can strike quick and fast, getting downfield with such speed it kills man to man and stretches zones until they holler. Drew Brees often can scan an entire field, having a viable big play threat in each quarter of the field. This opens up large chunks of real estate for the Saints RBs and TEs to roam and get open, working the flats or hash marks.

Sound familiar?

Tom Brady needs some taller targets in order to throw high in spaces where the receivers can go up a get the ball, instead of always having to fit throws in tight spaces.

Look for the Patriots to emulate the receiving corp of the Saints especially since a lot of the offense has been modeled after the Saints the past two seasons. It’s no secret that Bill Belichick and Sean Peyton have a great admiration of each other and their respective teams.

New England begins the next phase of offensive evolution

An interesting thought. The article was written prior to the start of free agency this year. Chad Ochocinco was the only veteran WR on the roster over 6' last year (I'm not counting Taylor Price or Tiquan Underwood). Wes Welker, Deion Branch and Julian Edelman are all 5'10" or less. Brandon Lloyd, Anthony Gonzalez and Donte Stallworth are a 6', and Jabar Gaffney is 6'2". All either have experience with Josh McDaniels' offense or have shown smarts and the ability to digest a playbook (Gonzalez). All have the ability to read coverages and make adjustments. And while they aren't 4.3 burners, all have the ability to create separation.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

i wanna see them run the ball more

 

[supafly]

With all of the threads about WR competition, RB signings, potential use of FBs, 3rd and 4th TEs, etc., one thing is clear: the Pats have signed a ton of skill players this offseason, but they will have to be selective in paring down the final roster and figuring out which players to keep and what kind of an offense they want to run. I came across this article from Football Outsiders which came out just before the Super Bowl - after it was announced that Bill O'Brien was leaving and after Josh McDaniels was re-hired, but before FA and the draft. As far as I can tell, it hasn't been discussed on this site yet - as with the thread on the evolution of the defense, my apologies if I'm re-treading old ground. Since the article is Insider content, I'm posting most (but not all) of it:



How the New England Patriots' offense has evolved - NFL - ESPN

It's a pretty simplistic analysis. And the Pats did indeed sign Brandon Lloyd in the offseason. But if all they were trying to do was achieve what the FO article suggests, then I'm not sure about why they did the following:

- Signed RB Joseph Addai. Depth or injury injurance for Vereen/Ridley, or does it signal more of an involvement of the running game.
- Signed FBs Tony Fiammetta and Spencer Larsen.
- Signed Jabar Gaffney, Donte Stallworth and Anthony Gonzalez in addition to Lloyd.
- Added TE Daniel Fells.

I'm not sure what BB and Josh McDaniels are ultimately going to be cooking on offense. But it seems more elaborate than just tweaking the spread offense to use the TEs with Hernandez lining up at WR more often.

How do people think the offense will evolve? Will Josh McD go back to the spread? Will he keep the offense basically as is but tweak it a bit with more of an outside threat? Or will the offense be something different from either 2007-2009 or 2010-2011?

In a simple answer, I believe that we have had a lot of recent success and you probably shouldn't fix what isn't necessarily broken.

I believe that the 2 TE sets are the bread and butter of the offense, along with Welker. That said, there was a glaring weakness at stretching the field and being able to throw the ball for any kind of moderate gains. (besides RAC of course)

The addition of Llyod to the mix immediately improves that aspect. On top of that, there has been additional competition to try and improve on the WR depth as a whole. That could/should be for the more obvious reasons of combatting potential injuries and improving on the WR1-WR6 positions as a whole. The talent level at the actual WR position last yr was not good, so if a guy like Branch (last yr's WR2) is now dropped down to a WR4 or WR5, that is all the better.

So those reasons explain the signings of Llyod, Gaffney, Stallworth, etc.

The signing of Fells is probably due to 2 facts:

1. The departure of Light, and the overall situation of the OL, which now means that we cannot mess around with guys like Solder as a blocking TE any more, thus needing to replace the typical 'blocking' TE role.

2. The injury to Gronkowski last year, and the need for more depth for the 2 TE sets.

I believe that the signings of Addai and the FB are basically just to add depth to the RB position, attempt to replace the good GL/SY situational football that BJGE brought, and maybe even camp fodder.

 

[UK_Pat37]

I believe that the 2 TE sets are the bread and butter of the offense, along with Welker. That said, there was a glaring weakness at stretching the field and being able to throw the ball for any kind of moderate gains. (besides RAC of course)

I've been wondering how true this may be recently. I expect a two TE offence with a couple of split ends and depending on how the Patriots view Welker (just a true slot or a guy who can play split end) then they may not envision him as a major key. The reason being is they only offered him a two year, $16M fully guaranteed deal last year, then apparently lowered that offer recently. Doesn't sound like the actions of a team who are desperate to keep their top receiver.

I have always said, for the past 2-3 years, that Welkers measurables can restrict what we are able to do massively at the split end position. We have the middle of the field covered...why would we invest too much money in a guy the team may see as expendable, when they know they have got to lock up two TEs pretty soon...and both deserve and want top 5 money respectively...with Gronk demanding the best salary of any TE.

The Pats won't go back to a spread but should be much of the same, with. Little more of a vertical threat thrown in there. Recently the Pats offence has looked more of a west coast style of offence and that won't change yet.

 

[Ive_Killed_People]

i wanna see them run the ball more

Ugh...Why dont you pop in the tape of a 50 year old Bears/Brown game. We have one of the greatest offenses in history and you are whining we need more running? We ran too much last year!!!!!!! Every 1st down we were running the ball,usually for one damn yard. We got into trouble a BUNCH of times for running on 1st and 2nd and then forcing Brady to complete on third down. I am not a violent man but if someone were to tell me we dont run enough and be in arms reach I may have to strangle them.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Ugh...Why dont you pop in the tape of a 50 year old Bears/Brown game. We have one of the greatest offenses in history and you are whining we need more running? We ran too much last year!!!!!!! Every 1st down we were running the ball,usually for one damn yard. We got into trouble a BUNCH of times for running on 1st and 2nd and then forcing Brady to complete on third down. I am not a violent man but if someone were to tell me we dont run enough and be in arms reach I may have to strangle them.

Part of running the ball effectively means being able to run well. The problem with our running game last year is that it was pretty obvious where Law Firm was going (up the middle), making him a lot easier to stop. Hopefully Ridley and Vereen are capable of being able to go up the middle and to the edge. If so, the play action will become a lot more deadly and it will help preserve TFB.

 

[randomk1]

I think the O evolved back in 2010...now it's just finding the players on the outside to complete it.

 

[ivanvamp]

I'll take a guess: the Pats will be able to run more hurry up using any collection of personnel.

This. My way-too-early guess as to the skill guys is this:

RB - Vereen, Ridley, Woodhead, Addai
WR - Welker, Lloyd, Branch, Gaffney, Slater, Stallworth?
TE - Gronkowski, Hernandez, Fells

I think they'll be able to go hurry-up with darned near any combination of those guys. Addai is used to it from his days with Peyton Manning in Indy. Lloyd and Gaffney and Stallworth know the offense already so they can run it, unlike Ocho. They can run hurry-up with 2 RB, 2 WR, and one TE (they could shift Vereen and Woodhead, for example, out wide, or line them up in the backfield). They can run hurry-up if they go 3 TE, 1 WR, and 1 RB. They can run hurry-up from a 4-WR, 1-TE set. The combinations are almost limitless.

I predict that, assuming TB stays healthy, this team will score over 33 points a game on average. It could threaten the '07 scoring mark, but only if the defense really improves and gets the ball back for the offense quickly.

What I really want is for them to be able, and be *willing* to move the ball and attack in whatever way is necessary. If they play a team with a great passing defense, I want them to run the ball down their throats, and be WILLING to do it time and time again. If the other team has a good run defense, I want them to shred them in the passing game.

The Giants in the SB were ripe to be run on. They had a really good pass rush, but were vulnerable to a heavy dose of the run, but the Pats didn't run it much. They only ran it 19 times (4.4 average) versus 43 passing plays (41 pass attempts + 2 sacks). And it wasn't like the Giants were crushing them, forcing NE to pass. The Pats clearly *could* have run more if they wanted to, and they had success when they did run, but they didn't. Well, that's been gone over a lot in this forum so I won't go into more detail, but the point is that I want them to be able and be willing to move the ball any way possible. If they need to run for 2 yards, I want them to be able to hammer it for 3. If they need to convert on 3rd and 11, I want them to do that. I think this team has a chance to be able to do *everything* an offense can possibly do: run power, draws, screens, deep balls, medium-depth passes, everything.

 

[patfanken]

This is a REALLY good thread, and could probably occupy our time from now until September, the offensive options that this roster offers are just that many.

But my offering on this subject will be limited to the running game. Over the years the running game across the league has diminished not only in the number of snaps, but in its simplicity as well. The only time you see more than one RB option now, is when teams go to the I formation. There is little or no deception in the running game now, other than an occasional "dig step" by the RB, or running from a passing formation.

But given the roster of RB's who can function within a passing offense, we have a rare opportunity to bring back some of the concepts of the true 2 back offense, where BOTH RBs were running threats. I was "raised" in the Delaware Wing T. There you can get lots of misdirection, and present a ton of problems for the defense to cover in the running game.

The key for the Pats would be to be able to utilize the same personnel as they would if the were going to pass. For this reason I offer this idea.

We saw late in the season putting Herandez in the backfield being very effective. If I were Josh, I'd expand on this formation for several reasons

1. While being an "average" blocker at TE, Hernandez, at his size, would be a more effective blocker from the backfield than most FB's

2. He has also proven that when given the ball to run, he can be successful.

3. It puts the D in a terrible match up situation. Normally with Hernandez in the backfield lining up either as a FB or split RB, you would have a LB to cover him if he releases. If you spotted that pre-snap, you could motion or release him and have horrible match up for the defense. If you choose to cover him with a DB, you get a horrible match up in the run game

4. We saw briefly last season that when Hernandez lined up in the backfield teams had problems accounting for him. Is he a RB? Is he a Receiver? Who covers him? Just his presence back there makes the OTHER RB potentially more effective. It forces the defense to squeeze more people within the box and makes life easier for WRs and slot men.

This is incredibly simplified of course, but perhaps you can see the myriad of possibilities just having Hernandez lining up in the backfield. But not only this, but having Vareen AND Ridley lining up in a wing T (one RB behind the QB and one off set, usually away from the strength of the formation), or the old fashioned split backs could bring back some of the complexity of the running game that we haven't seen in ages.

Fun stuff to think about it. Another chance to break new ground, especially when defenses are all being geared to stop the pass.

 

[mayoclinic]

This is a REALLY good thread, and could probably occupy our time from now until September, the offensive options that this roster offers are just that many.

But my offering on this subject will be limited to the running game. Over the years the running game across the league has diminished not only in the number of snaps, but in its simplicity as well. The only time you see more than one RB option now, is when teams go to the I formation. There is little or no deception in the running game now, other than an occasional "dig step" by the RB, or running from a passing formation.

But given the roster of RB's who can function within a passing offense, we have a rare opportunity to bring back some of the concepts of the true 2 back offense, where BOTH RBs were running threats. I was "raised" in the Delaware Wing T. There you can get lots of misdirection, and present a ton of problems for the defense to cover in the running game.

The key for the Pats would be to be able to utilize the same personnel as they would if the were going to pass. For this reason I offer this idea.

We saw late in the season putting Herandez in the backfield being very effective. If I were Josh, I'd expand on this formation for several reasons

1. While being an "average" blocker at TE, Hernandez, at his size, would be a more effective blocker from the backfield than most FB's

2. He has also proven that when given the ball to run, he can be successful.

3. It puts the D in a terrible match up situation. Normally with Hernandez in the backfield lining up either as a FB or split RB, you would have a LB to cover him if he releases. If you spotted that pre-snap, you could motion or release him and have horrible match up for the defense. If you choose to cover him with a DB, you get a horrible match up in the run game

4. We saw briefly last season that when Hernandez lined up in the backfield teams had problems accounting for him. Is he a RB? Is he a Receiver? Who covers him? Just his presence back there makes the OTHER RB potentially more effective. It forces the defense to squeeze more people within the box and makes life easier for WRs and slot men.

This is incredibly simplified of course, but perhaps you can see the myriad of possibilities just having Hernandez lining up in the backfield. But not only this, but having Vareen AND Ridley lining up in a wing T (one RB behind the QB and one off set, usually away from the strength of the formation), or the old fashioned split backs could bring back some of the complexity of the running game that we haven't seen in ages.

Fun stuff to think about it. Another chance to break new ground, especially when defenses are all being geared to stop the pass.

Good stuff. Some comments:

1. Love the 2 back idea with Ahern at "FB", especially when the other RB is someone like Vereen or Woodhead who can split out wide. If you combine it with 2 WRs + Gronk then you have a myriad of options. Even more if you combine it with 1 WR + 2 TEs. I'm hoping Daniel Fells justifies his FA deal. One of the reasons I was potentially excited about signing someone like Dallas Clark or even Kellen Winslow would be to use them in this kind of setting.

2. While he's not Ahern by any stretch of the imagination, Spencer Larsen could be effective as the FB in this kind of scheme, too. Larsen has a nice skill set which could make him an effective blocker/runner/receiver threat at FB.

 

[ivanvamp]

This is incredibly simplified of course, but perhaps you can see the myriad of possibilities just having Hernandez lining up in the backfield. But not only this, but having Vareen AND Ridley lining up in a wing T (one RB behind the QB and one off set, usually away from the strength of the formation), or the old fashioned split backs could bring back some of the complexity of the running game that we haven't seen in ages.

I wonder why the old split-back formation is no longer used. Obviously it is not considered to be as effective, but why? I remember the '85-86 Patriots used Tony Collins and Craig James that way all the time, with devastating effect. For example, consider their 1985 season:

James: 263 att, 1227 yds, 4.7 ypc, 27 rec, 360 yds = 1587 yds
Collins: 163 att, 657 yds, 4.0 ypc, 52 rec, 549 yds = 1206 yds

So in 505 combined touches, they gained 2793 yds (5.5 avg). That's very effective. Why couldn't the Pats use Vereen, Woodhead, Gronk, Hernandez, and, say, Lloyd in a 2-TE, split-RB set with Lloyd strung out wide? Either RB could get the ball, going in either direction. Or any of 5 guys could catch the pass in any part of the defensive zone (short, middle, or deep). It could be very effective, it seems to me.

 

[eagle eye]

I love the idea of the I-formation with Hernandez lining up as fullback. That has so many receivers on the field that a defense has real trouble figuring out what to do.

 

[patfanken]

I love the idea of the I-formation with Hernandez lining up as fullback. That has so many receivers on the field that a defense has real trouble figuring out what to do.

Its not just the receivers, its what they can do as runners against defenses that are designed to stop the pass.

 

[patfanken]

I wonder why the old split-back formation is no longer used. Obviously it is not considered to be as effective, but why? I remember the '85-86 Patriots used Tony Collins and Craig James that way all the time, with devastating effect. For example, consider their 1985 season:

James: 263 att, 1227 yds, 4.7 ypc, 27 rec, 360 yds = 1587 yds
Collins: 163 att, 657 yds, 4.0 ypc, 52 rec, 549 yds = 1206 yds

So in 505 combined touches, they gained 2793 yds (5.5 avg). That's very effective. Why couldn't the Pats use Vereen, Woodhead, Gronk, Hernandez, and, say, Lloyd in a 2-TE, split-RB set with Lloyd strung out wide? Either RB could get the ball, going in either direction. Or any of 5 guys could catch the pass in any part of the defensive zone (short, middle, or deep). It could be very effective, it seems to me.

I'm not saying we should become the "ground and pound" Patriots, but as you point out, there are a ton of positive match ups that we can achieve when teams go to nickel and dime packages to stop our passing game

 

[captain stone]

This is a REALLY good thread, and could probably occupy our time from now until September, the offensive options that this roster offers are just that many.

But my offering on this subject will be limited to the running game. Over the years the running game across the league has diminished not only in the number of snaps, but in its simplicity as well. The only time you see more than one RB option now, is when teams go to the I formation. There is little or no deception in the running game now, other than an occasional "dig step" by the RB, or running from a passing formation.

But given the roster of RB's who can function within a passing offense, we have a rare opportunity to bring back some of the concepts of the true 2 back offense, where BOTH RBs were running threats. I was "raised" in the Delaware Wing T. There you can get lots of misdirection, and present a ton of problems for the defense to cover in the running game.

The key for the Pats would be to be able to utilize the same personnel as they would if the were going to pass. For this reason I offer this idea.

We saw late in the season putting Herandez in the backfield being very effective. If I were Josh, I'd expand on this formation for several reasons

1. While being an "average" blocker at TE, Hernandez, at his size, would be a more effective blocker from the backfield than most FB's

2. He has also proven that when given the ball to run, he can be successful.

3. It puts the D in a terrible match up situation. Normally with Hernandez in the backfield lining up either as a FB or split RB, you would have a LB to cover him if he releases. If you spotted that pre-snap, you could motion or release him and have horrible match up for the defense. If you choose to cover him with a DB, you get a horrible match up in the run game

4. We saw briefly last season that when Hernandez lined up in the backfield teams had problems accounting for him. Is he a RB? Is he a Receiver? Who covers him? Just his presence back there makes the OTHER RB potentially more effective. It forces the defense to squeeze more people within the box and makes life easier for WRs and slot men.

This is incredibly simplified of course, but perhaps you can see the myriad of possibilities just having Hernandez lining up in the backfield. But not only this, but having Vareen AND Ridley lining up in a wing T (one RB behind the QB and one off set, usually away from the strength of the formation), or the old fashioned split backs could bring back some of the complexity of the running game that we haven't seen in ages.

Fun stuff to think about it. Another chance to break new ground, especially when defenses are all being geared to stop the pass.

I don't disagree w/ any of these ideas to utilize Hernandez in the backfield.
However, I would be very wary of using him that often back there.
Firstly, while he may be somewhat taller/heavier than many FBs, he does not have the blocking/running instincts of a FB, esp. btwn the Guards. He seems more of a 'wall-off" blocker, effective on draws & misdirections, than of a lead blocker.
And secondly, while he does have excellent open-field running ability, he still does not have the instincts of a 2-down or short-yardage RB. He runs too upright & does not secure the football consistently. This could result in fumbles and - worse - injuries.

As it is in life, so it is in football: everything in moderation, and moderation in everything.
Hernandez is a great multi-formation & multi-situational weapon, but as a Back (running or blocking) in traffic is probably the way I would use him least often.

 

[supafly]

I've been wondering how true this may be recently. I expect a two TE offence with a couple of split ends and depending on how the Patriots view Welker (just a true slot or a guy who can play split end) then they may not envision him as a major key. The reason being is they only offered him a two year, $16M fully guaranteed deal last year, then apparently lowered that offer recently. Doesn't sound like the actions of a team who are desperate to keep their top receiver.

I have always said, for the past 2-3 years, that Welkers measurables can restrict what we are able to do massively at the split end position. We have the middle of the field covered...why would we invest too much money in a guy the team may see as expendable, when they know they have got to lock up two TEs pretty soon...and both deserve and want top 5 money respectively...with Gronk demanding the best salary of any TE.

The Pats won't go back to a spread but should be much of the same, with. Little more of a vertical threat thrown in there. Recently the Pats offence has looked more of a west coast style of offence and that won't change yet.

It certainly seems as though they are playing some hardball, but that is to be expected at the same time, based on prior history and the fact that the 2 TE's now seem to be the top priority.

At the end of the day though, I'm still confident that Welker will lower his demands a bit and stay here for awhile longer. As important as the TE's are, Welker's importance is still pretty high on the list, at least in my opinion.

It's certainly a very interesting situation though, that's for sure.

 

[Joker]

As it is in life, so it is in football: everything in moderation, and moderation in everything.

uh...except for one little exception...blondes....blondes in excess and I'm one happy Joe Kerr