How many more wins with Charlie & Romeo?

[eagle eye]

I posted a poll and those in the distinct minority have been loud in their ciritcism for even considering the possibility that we had better coordinators in Weiss and Crennel than we have now.

I'm not voting in that poll, I couldn't honestly say if either/both would improve our team at this late stage of the season. You need time to change things.

I certainly agree that Weis and Crennel are better than what we have now.

Last season we got away with Brady being injured because we had the most brilliant OC in the game and of that I have no doubt.

The D let us down a couple of times last year, but there were a lot of injuries. Still though we would have made the playoffs were it not for the two horrendous performances by the D against the Dolphins and the Jets at home.

 

[PatriotWarrior]

Look at what Charlie Weiss worked with in 2001 and in 2003:
Official New England Patriots - Team / - Roster Reports

2003 New England Patriots


The offensive line were half guys nobody wanted, one just converted from wrestling, one was a rookie tackle. The running back was Antowain Smith, who nobody wanted. Jermaine Wiggins was used often as a tight end, Arthur Love was the other TE. Our receivers were Dave Patten (who nobody else wanted), Brown, and 7th round pick former QB David Givens.

The same goes for Romeo. Nobody wanted Rodney, Vrabel was an unknown backup, Bruschi was an undersized ILB, that D-line before drafting Warren was full of spare parts and a rookie Seymour. That Pats D suffered more injuries than anybody, but they just kept rolling. We even won a ring with Troy Brown playing corner and no Ty Law for almost an entire year.


These two were hands down our best offensive and defensive coordinators under Belichick. A sign of a great coordinator is winning when EVERYONE outside of New England doesn't think the talent is there, and you still win. A great coordinator isn't someone who puts up sexy stats and folds every single year.

Very good post, I agree. I was thinking today how much less talent CW had to work with the likes of Troy Brown, David Patten. I am not sure why some people are pessimistic about the idea of bringing back CW for OC. Can you just imagine what he could do with the current offense with Moss and Welker? Your right about the defensive side how they didn't have great players but still made enough plays to win games. They had a bend but don't break defense. Other teams got alot of yards on them but they didn't make it easy for other teams offenses to score on them. Crennell's defenses used to confuse other offenses with their schemes. Pees defenses dont confuse anybody and the schemes looks very vanilla.

You can't underestimate the value of having great coordinators.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Sorry, but your argument is so off base a bit of sarcasm is warranted.

Warrant this, Tunescribe!

 

[mgteich]

The thread was about the entire season. No is suggesting what would happen if new coordinators were brought in now.

I'm not voting in that poll, I couldn't honestly say if either/both would improve our team at this late stage of the season. You need time to change things.

I certainly agree that Weis and Crennel are better than what we have now.

Last season we got away with Brady being injured because we had the most brilliant OC in the game and of that I have no doubt.

The D let us down a couple of times last year, but there were a lot of injuries. Still though we would have made the playoffs were it not for the two horrendous performances by the D against the Dolphins and the Jets at home.

 

[mgteich]

??????????????
Are yopu really saying that O'brian is a better OC than Charlie Weiss would be if he cam back in 2010? And this is because he failed as a Head Coach? ?????????????????

Why bother living in the past with both of them? They may have performed better, they may have performed worse or they may have performed the same as the current coordinators. Geez I miss in their prime Washington, Bruschi, Seymour, Harrison, Law, McGinest, Phifer etc.. but that period in the Patriots history is done and dusted.

At the end of the day, both Romeo and Charlie moved on the pastures elsewhere and were basic failures as head coaches. That doesn't say much about their abilities, as we all know they are talented, but they aren't our saviours either.

 

[RichSeymour]

After QB play, coaching is the second most important factor in winning games in the NFL, IMHO of course. Voted for 3 more wins based on that.

 

[ausbacker]

??????????????
Are yopu really saying that O'brian is a better OC than Charlie Weiss would be if he cam back in 2010? And this is because he failed as a Head Coach? ?????????????????

Absolutely not, Charlie and Romeo were fantastic here, I'm just saying I do not expect a miracle transformation owing to personnel development and the current state of the Patriot roster if they are both brought back.

 

[eagle eye]

??????????????
Are yopu really saying that O'brian is a better OC than Charlie Weiss would be if he cam back in 2010? And this is because he failed as a Head Coach? ?????????????????

My apologies I took it up wrong.

I think Romeo would have made a huge difference. I don't think we would have lost to the Colts or the Broncos with him there.

I really could not say for certain that Weis would have made a difference in the games we lost.
In the other two games we lost, yeah sure we could have been better defensively against the Saints but we played well on D against the Jets in our loss.
In fact I'd have to put our offensive problems in those two games squarely on Brady's shoulders. It was only his second game back against the Jets and thats understandable but last night, well he just had a horrible night with the picks and overthrowing receivers. Definitely the performance of the OL would have made a difference but still thats not going to help much if your QB is not performing.

I'm not saying that I would not prefer Weis as our OC, I would much prefer to have him there but I couldn't honestly say that he would have contributed to wins in games we lost this season.

 

[Tunescribe]

??????????????
Are yopu really saying that O'brian is a better OC than Charlie Weiss would be if he cam back in 2010? And this is because he failed as a Head Coach? ?????????????????

Weis is five years removed from the NFL, that's a whole generation of players come and gone since he's been away. Much has changed and as I seem to recall, there was plenty of grousing about Weis's play calling on this board while he was with New England. Anyone who thinks the return of Weis and Crennel would be a "magic bullet" for the Pats' return to prominence is extrapolating the team formula of five years ago onto present-day conditions, and it just doesn't fit. The biggest difference of all is how radically the team roster has changed. If BB thought Crennel was a better DC than Pees, for instance, don't you think he would've brought Romeo back? And keep in mind that O'Brien is in his first season calling plays, whereas McDaniels was OC for four years.

Arguments like yours suggest that BB either is stubborn or ignorant when it comes to coordinators, to the team's detriment. What makes you think you know enough to go there? I'll bet anything that this batch of defensive players would fare no better under Crennel than under Pees. (If Crennel was such a gifted DC why were his defenses in Cleveland so lousy?) And, I'd also go with O'Brien next season -- a young coach with a year under his belt -- over Weis, who will need time to get back up to speed wherever he lands.

 

[maverick4]

Tunescribe when has Belichick ever fired a coordinator?

While he's ruthless about his players, he seems to give a long leash to his staff.

Even considering how crappy Mangini was as d-coordinator, Belichick still let him run the defense. Same with McKid his first year.

 

[crypto]

This thread is hysterical. Romeo Crennel wouldn't have stepped back and given up leads the way Pees did with the Broncos and Colts. It doesn't matter if this defense is a notch below 03's talent-wise. It just wouldn't happen.

 

[maverick4]

75% of the forum agrees that this team would be better with different coordinators.

However, based on the vote an amazing 1/4 think that coordinators/coaching makes no difference or impact on the outcome of a game. It's remarkable given how coaching has a much bigger influence in the NFL than in the NBA or in baseball, where talent usually wins. In football you control many more players, and every single act on the field is a different play call, and then players reset.


If O'Brien or McKid coached the offense from 01-04, we would have zero rings. Weiss stopped the Panthers pass rush in 2003 with a crappy O-line; if O'Brien or McKid coordinated that offense Brady would have been knocked out of the game.

 

[ausbacker]

75% of the forum agrees that this team would be better with different coordinators.

However, based on the vote an amazing 1/4 think that coordinators/coaching makes no difference or impact on the outcome of a game. It's remarkable given how coaching has a much bigger influence in the NFL than in the NBA or in baseball, where talent usually wins. In football you control many more players, and every single act on the field is a different play call, and then players reset.


If O'Brien or McKid coached the offense from 01-04, we would have zero rings. Weiss stopped the Panthers pass rush in 2003 with a crappy O-line; if O'Brien or McKid coordinated that offense Brady would have been knocked out of the game.

You're pissing in the wind to big note yourself now maverick. Nobody is saying that Weis and Crennel won't make a difference, we just don't know how big that difference is because the Patriots roster on the whole is in a completely different stage of development than it was in the Superbowl years.

 

[mgteich]

Yes, it the development and personnel is very, very different. We now have a much, much better OL, better receivers and a much better offense. And, we have a much weaker defense. Instead of linebackers being our strongest unit, they are our weakest unit.

You're pissing in the wind to big note yourself now maverick. Nobody is saying that Weis and Crennel won't make a difference, we just don't know how big that difference is because the Patriots roster on the whole is in a completely different stage of development than it was in the Superbowl years.

 

[maverick4]

I don't know about Romeo but Charlie still has it when it comes to offense. You look even this year, his team still scored tons of points whether they won or lost, it was his D that cost him his job.

The thing about Charlie, which gives me confidence that he could step right in even now, is he is a very adaptable coach. He isn't one of those guys who creates a system and then relies on it over and over, like pretty much every other coordinator does. When he coaches you don't know who is going to get the TD, a different player will be featured based on what he sees on tape/scouting. He used to run a chameleon-type offense which was horrible for player's individual fantasy stats, but could beat you playing almost any style week to week.

You look at what he did with a bunch of nobodies, working with the talent we have now on offense would be a piece of cake.

 

[mgteich]

If Charlie coaches this offense next year, we will have one of the best offenses in the history of the NFL (as I predicted for this year, not understanding how bad O'Brian really is).
We have our whole offense coming back. The only issue is at guard which isn't much to solve in free agency or the draft. Besides, we might be able to re-sign Mankins and neal.

The defense is harder to judge, since the defensive talent is so much different now (weaker talent now, and much less experienced).

Our best DC was Belichick. If Charlie were hired, Belichick could spend much, much more time with defense. The offense would be in fine shape with Charlie, dante and Brady. Belichick can't do everything, but a CEO (or a HC) can step in and work with the weakest link, especially when it is his special strength. Ignoring all the roles that belichick now plays, is there any question that the defense would be much better (and more mysterious to opponents) if Belichick were much more involved in the nitty gritty?

I don't know about Romeo but Charlie still has it when it comes to offense. You look even this year, his team still scored tons of points whether they won or lost, it was his D that cost him his job.

The thing about Charlie, which gives me confidence that he could step right in even now, is he is a very adaptable coach. He isn't one of those guys who creates a system and then relies on it over and over, like pretty much every other coordinator does. When he coaches you don't know who is going to get the TD, a different player will be featured based on what he sees on tape/scouting. He used to run a chameleon-type offense which was horrible for player's individual fantasy stats, but could beat you playing almost any style week to week.

You look at what he did with a bunch of nobodies, working with the talent we have now on offense would be a piece of cake.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

If Charlie coaches this offense next year, we will have one of the best offenses in the history of the NFL (as I predicted for this year, not understanding how bad O'Brian really is).

You predict that every season failing to account for the fact that **** happens.
We have our whole offense coming back. The only issue is at guard which isn't much to solve in free agency or the draft. Besides, we might be able to re-sign Mankins and neal.

The defense is harder to judge, since the defensive talent is so much different now (weaker talent now, and much less experienced).

Our best DC was Belichick. If Charlie were hired, Belichick could spend much, much more time with defense. The offense would be in fine shape with Charlie, dante and Brady. Belichick can't do everything, but a CEO (or a HC) can step in and work with the weakest link, especially when it is his special strength. Ignoring all the roles that belichick now plays, is there any question that the defense would be much better (and more mysterious to opponents) if Belichick were much more involved in the nitty gritty?

Belichick is as involved as ever in the nitty gritty. He also selected the nitty gritty.
Just like he traded away some folks binky winkies and went for it on 4th and 2 and got their panties all in a bunch.

Charlie won't be back here unless no one else wants him as an OC. In which case BB will take him on as a consultant to mend his image (kinda like he did for Dom Capers while not chosing to retain him on his staff long term). That's a worst case scenario for Charlie if he actually wants to return to the NFL since all working under BB and with Tom Brady again would underscore is that maybe that's all Charlie is good for.

 

[eagle eye]

I meant to post this here but posted it in the wrong thread.

I personally think Weis would do a better job for us than Bill O'Brien as OC.
I'm not saying that BOB is doing a bad job though and I cannot believe the amount of posts I've read which say he has to go. Its just unbelievable.

Here are some stats for our offense this year.

Scoring average: 27.9 thats 4th highest in the NFL this year
Turnovers: 13 total, thats joint 4th fewest
Receiving: 293 rec. for 3357 yards, 2nd
Rushing: 312 for 1260, 17th
Overall: 4527yards, 2nd
Passing: 96.1 rating, 8th
1st downs made: 263, 1st
3rd down conv: 44.4%, 7th
4th down conv: 53.3% 13th
Off. penalties: 59, 7th fewest
Off. pen yards: 519, 14th fewest

 

[IcyPatriot]

I think we win the Denver game ... maybe. Not because Romeo was a greta play caller ... it was that he was such a great mentor and teacher. His results were crafted over time. Perhaps Pees does not have that gift ... not sure but Romeo had it for sure.

 

[maverick4]

I meant to post this here but posted it in the wrong thread.

Those stats just go to show that stats don't automatically show a coordinator is good. You won't find anyone who says that O'Brien is a good coordinator. From 07-now the talent on the offense has been unbelievable. You could probably randomly pick a play from a hat all game and it would most often still look good.