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How is this not child endangerment?

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Wolfpack, Jun 11, 2010.

  1. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    "What's that, sweetie? You're 16, but you want to sail around the round? Sure go ahead!"

    This child (and yes, at 16 she is still a child) is lucky to be alive as rescue teams are scrambling to save her. But it's just a matter of time until one of these children dies trying to sail around the world or climb Mount Everest or whatever.

    If adults choose to risk their lives doing these types of things, that's one thing. Allowing a child to do it is something else entirely. And I hope they get a big fat bill for all the money being spent to rescue someone who never should have been where she is in the first place.

    AFP: Parents of US teen sailor defend record attempt
     
  2. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #95 Jersey


    The more things change, the more they remain the same. Back in 1997 a 7 year old attempted to "fly" cross country and ended up dead when the real pilot took off in a thunderstorm an crashed,

    Instructor Error Cited in Crash Of Plane Flown by 7-Year-Old - NYTimes.com

    And yes it is child abuse....Then again there are times when you'd like to send a 16 year old halfway around the world.
     
  3. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #91 Jersey

    I had the same thought, she shouldn't have been out there, what kind of parents does she have, and they should pay the rescue bill.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2010
  4. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    In the past kids similar to this age have rowed across the atlantic, sailed around the world, climbed Mt. Everest and performed similar tasks... her 16 year old brother had recently completed this task, are we to deny the same opportunity to young women if they possess the same skillset???

    This is a sailing family, this young woman was very well prepared, very well equipped.. what happenned was not because of her ability, but because of weather...

    We send 17 year old young men and women equipped with automatic weapons to war, is that "child endangerment"??

    Her parents did not make her go, they allowed her to go, they raised her to be an adult... this is a bright, precocious young woman... comments from her father

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37650809/ns/us_news-life/


    This young woman is perhaps better prepared to sail the deep blue sea than most of our children are who get behind the wheel of a car. Should we never let them free? As a parent and grandparent if my children are as prepared for the challenge they face as possible, they ought not be denied the right to face it, government should not be involved in my decision making..

    Child endangerment is a role of state systems, the government has no role in this case... to suggest so shows a lack of understanding of the role of government and child welfare systems.. or perhaps a desire to continue the "granny state" even more than it already has...

    Should she pay for the cost of recovery?? Probably so...
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2010
  5. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No Jersey Selected

    I agree that at 16 this girl is perfectly capable of understanding the perils that could possibly await her at sea as she travels around the world. The only problem I have with your post is the fact that you made comparisons between that and driving a car. Sorry, but getting in a sail boat and going thousands and thousands of miles around the world in possible inclement weather and high seas is not exactly the same as driving around your hometown for some smoothies and a movie.
     
  6. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I did make the comparison, the father did... and it is a piss poor one.

    As a former child welfare worker, the issue of jurisdiction comes up.. she is a California resident, and the "endangerment" took place in the southern India Ocean, whose laws apply Mauratania, South Africa or some other small country?? If a Mass. resident goes to Maine, and abuses or neglects their child, Maine has jurisdiction not Massachusetts...

    Unless we want to extend the "granny state" worldwide.. oh the horrors!!!!
     
  7. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think it's child endangerment, and in the past I've thought about this in a different context. I think that the way Fred Phelps raises his kids (to have them picket at the funerals of troops, for instance) is child endagerment. But, matters like this seem awfully difficult to regulate without violating the legitimate rights of parents and their children.
     
  8. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I got so mad reading it I couldn't finish reading it, they should Drown the parents.

    Imagine going to bed at night knowing your little 16 year old daughter is out in the middle of the ocean all by herself.
     
  9. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #95 Jersey

    Harry,
    How about having a rescue ship/boat an hour or two behind her so it is close by in the event she gets into trouble? Instead the nearest boat is 400 miles and 24 hours + away. Letting her attempt it isn't reckless but doing so without preparing for contingencies is deficient. That's the part that bothers me. when someone swims the English Channel, they have a rescue boat close by in the event they falter.
    ----------------------
    Darryl, to address your point of whether the courts have jurisdiction for actions outside the state of California, I believe they can exert it (not a legal opinion). If the father in this case had taken the daughter to a foreign country and sold her into prostitution and then brought her back home, he would find himself facing charges even though all the actions took place outside California. It is done already for those who travel to foreign countries to engage in sex with minors. Recently we had an individual in my area get convicted Federally for that offense and be sentenced to 5 years in jail for offenses committed in Russia.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2010
  10. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Your right, when I first heard this story I thought they did have a boat close by for an emergency and that something went so wrong that they might have lost sight and contact with her, well we live in a strange world, you know during WWII there were 17 year old sailors out there in the Pacific & Atlantic floating around on little rubber life rafts but of course thats not the same as letting your kid sail off alone, I couldn't do it, I'm glad she didn't die, sometimes these kind of people will want to give it another try........:confused:
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2010
  11. PatsFanInMaine

    PatsFanInMaine Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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  12. DarrylS

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    But he did not sell her into prostitution, and that is a very poor example.. he did the same thing he allowed his son to do the year previous...

    The father did not take her to a foreign country and do anything, he allowed her to take a risk.. a risk she was apparently prepared for and the same risk her brother took previously at age 16.. here is her blog.

    http://www.abbysunderland.com/

    Is it dangerous, yes... is it criminal, probably not...

    In 4 months we would deem her to be wise enough to join the military, carry a gun and go to war...

    As much as no one likes it, it is not the role of government to intervene...
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2010
  13. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #91 Jersey

    From what i read this girl wasn't as experianced as others her age who have attempted this. Also not only was her ability under question so wasn't her parents in planning the route, setting off in that latitude at this time of year is very risky.
    Also the example you gave of the 13 yr old climbing Everest, when i was on Mauna kea there was a sign at the 9,000 ft level that said no one Under 16 was allowed to go higher because of possible permanent lung damage. So i think the kids parents that allowed him to climb are in the same same catagory as this girls.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2010
  14. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Do not know if she is prepared or not prepared, but there is no role for government in this case.. everyone whines about the "nanny state" and there is a need to either invite the government into our homes and dictate what we do in every segment.. or allow people the freedom to take some risks..

    She had already completed over 12,000 miles on this trip.. she hit a storm, and that was her demise..

    Was she prepared??, here are her website comments..


    Here is a whole list of teenagers who have tried or are about to try..

    Circumnavigation Facts - Abby Sunderland

    One could say, by their sponsorship, all these sponsors are complicit in this act..

    http://www.abbysunderland.com/sponsors.php

    On October 19, 2010 when she is 17 she can join the military, carry a rifle and go to a combat area...
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2010
  15. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #95 Jersey


    Are you saying it is not the government's role to intervene because it happening outside the boundaries of the US or because of the facts of this case? The facts of this case as Harry said are stupid but likely don't rise to the level of a criminal act despite my initial reflexive comments. If that's the case, I'll grant you that they won't win parent of the year and while they are giving their child independence, there are limits.
    If my send my 16 year old on an organized teen bus tour, it's one thing. If I give him $300 and a Greyhound bus ticket and say "see you in 7 weeks" it borders on the criminal, no matter how mature he/she is .
    Turning it around on you, do you agree that there are times when the government should intervene? How about conduct that is willful, reckless, egregious? What if he gave her money and a bike and let her bike cross country unsupervised and solo at 16 years old?
     
  16. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Have had extensive background in Child Welfare.. we would never intervene in this type of case, unless there was intense political pressure.. and if we did it would usually work against us... this is not abuse, it is not neglect.. it probably would not stand the test of child endangerment..

    Here is the definition.. to use this definition is really a stretch.. there may have been harm, but from first reports there is no harm.. thus no foul.

    Your comparisons are a little bit different, she had extensive preparation.. had a very good vessel.. had every safety precaution available to her.. had completed over 12K miles before she hit this storm..

    Kids have probably travelled across country on bus, or biked across currently.. maybe even walked across the country.

    Do I like any of this??.. no.. is it risky??.. yes.. should the family reimburse the Australian Government? yes... can you make it criminal? probably not..

    On October 19,2010 she can join the military, carry a rifle and go to a combat zone..
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2010
  17. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #95 Jersey

    California Penal Code 273a PC child endangerment
    If you willfully


    • inflict on a child (or allow another person to inflict) unjustifiable physical pain or mental suffering,
    • allow the child or health of the child to suffer injury, OR
    • cause or allow the child to be in a situation where his/her body or health may be endangered,
     
  18. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #95 Jersey

    Since they are Cal residents, I'll use the criminal definition of the elements of child endangerment. Someone could make a strong case, if they wanted to for the last situation....
    With props to Sgt. Joe Friday...


    California Penal Code 273a PC child endangerment
    If you willfully


    • inflict on a child (or allow another person to inflict) unjustifiable physical pain or mental suffering,
    • allow the child or health of the child to suffer injury, OR
    • cause or allow the child to be in a situation where his/her body or health may be endangered,
     
  19. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Looks like a statute you could apply, but then what do you want the outcome to be?? Do you want her not to reunite with these "dangerous" parents?? Do you want father to go to jail?? Do you want fines??

    Without regard, there would be astronomical costs in prosecuting this case.. as father has deep pockets on what would be considered an obtuse statute by any prominent attorney.. as it could be argued that he did not allow this to happen, just because it did happen.. it was an act of nature.

    Still do not see any need for state intervention, she is no longer in danger, the home does not seem dangerous.. just another case to clog up a system that is already clogged..
     
  20. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #95 Jersey


    I'm not recommending charges, I'm just saying that the actions could conceivably have led to them. You can't teach common sense and as much as we don't want to be 'helicopter parents' hovering over our kids, you'd like to think that they're within a time zone or two....
    Let the guy pay for recovery efforts, that's punishment enough.. She'll probably be on Oprah next week and likely get a book deal out of it.......that will probably pay for college and more....Why didn't I think of that??

    PS Sorry for the double post before...computer glitch
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2010

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