How good is our run defense?

[Box_O_Rocks]

We will continue to hear complaints about Mayo not playing like Lewis or Willis from fans who don't understand what his assignment is but he will continue to team with Wilfork and whoever his DE is to control the area fron C to T very well. Spikes is also a great fit for that job.

If I have one complaint about Mayo it's his hesitation about meeting the Guard in the hole. I felt Guyton was doing that more as the season wore on, but Mayo was still a little slower to commit inside, for whatever reason be it a read delay, coaching, or trying to break 4-3 habits. Spikes isn't bothered by that, as long as he plays his assignment and doesn't try to pursue before the cutback option is closed he'll be fine.

At DE Brace showed me in preseason that he is exactly the physical force I described above to handle todays pass blocking favored OT. Gerard Warren certainly has the bulk and strength to control OTs as well, however I have not been impressed with his ability to disengage the blocker to make the play in the small sample we have seen (although not holding the point of attack is the cardinal sin, and not disengaging well is a much less severe issue to survive) and it seems to be in his blood to want to abandon 2gap duties and try to penetrate. I see Wright as a solid player who needs to keep excellent technique discipline to not be overpowered and who is inconsistent with technique discipline.

Brace looks like he'll be fine. Warren was getting moved back too easily in preseason when he wasn't shooting a gap. Wright has always struggled when subbing in for Ty Warren, he is much more consistent and harder to move when he's at Nose or in at RDE, I'm really not concerned about him. Deadrick would be my choice for the inactive DL, but if Pryor's knee is bothering he may get some game reps at RDE, there are flashes to suggest he can do the job once he gets his on switch to stay on. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Love playing Nose and Wilfork outside, or the two NTs get used like the Wiliams Bros. or Siragusa/Adams in a 40 front.

One very, very crtical part of run D IMO is short yardage. 3rd and 1, 4th and 1, goalline. I think out of everything about a defense this is the one area we are least consistent year to year. Franlkly we either own those situations or struggle very badly. I am encouraged that we may have one of those seasons where we own short yardage because of the bulk of our DL. We are bigger on the DL, and in reserve DL than I ever remember outside of maybe Ted Washington being bigger by himself than any other DL

A point, not to mention this would be an area where Spikes explosiveness might be a better fit.

Overall, I think our run D will be improved.

The potential is there, even if it's still only potential in game one.

How will the OLBs play that strong OT run, handling a pulling G, a trap, a stretch play cut up inside them? Other than TBC (who did a pretty good job last year) we really havent seen enough to know.

Actually Ninkovich was stronger then TBC at this last year, and I think Murrell will be okay, once he adjusted to being used at LDE against NYG he held up okay in the trench fighting.

It's hopeful, and of course part of that hope is the aggressive way McCourty supported the run and Chung's speed/power to the mark.

 

[mgteich]

I get that you "really don't see how Cincinnati is a rushing team".

The reality is that FOUR of the 32 teams in the nfl ran the ball more than 500 times last year. Cinci was one of the four. As far as passing, in attempts, completions and yards, Cinci ranked 27th, 25th and 26th. Cinci was a running team in 2009. Perhaps TO will make all the difference this year, or perhaps he won't.

I don't really see how Cincinnati is a Rushing team. Cedric Benson has been terrible up until last year where he rushed for 1,200 yards. That is a good season but I am not sold on him. I am not worried about Benson like everyone else is.

 

[CheeseMonkeys]

I get that you "really don't see how Cincinnati is a rushing team".

The reality is that FOUR of the 32 teams in the nfl ran the ball more than 500 times last year. Cinci was one of the four. As far as passing, in attempts, completions and yards, Cinci ranked 27th, 25th and 26th. Cinci was a running team in 2009. Perhaps TO will make all the difference this year, or perhaps he won't.

I'm thinking that they will rush less this year and pass more. Benson won't be as successful. I just hope we can rush the QB and that our secondary holds up.

 

[Ring 6]

If I have one complaint about Mayo it's his hesitation about meeting the Guard in the hole. I felt Guyton was doing that more as the season wore on, but Mayo was still a little slower to commit inside, for whatever reason be it a read delay, coaching, or trying to break 4-3 habits. Spikes isn't bothered by that, as long as he plays his assignment and doesn't try to pursue before the cutback option is closed he'll be fine.

I think this is the ironic difficulty of our system for an ILB. You really need to account for your area before you can vacate. Doing that makes you slow to pursue, and LBs in other system are taught that quick pursuit is critical. If your prime responsiblity is the C to T on one side of the ball, you are going to, by definition not be involved in a lot of plays if you dont pursue. This leads to a hesitation to step too far up into the area, because more plays do not come to you than do, and you can fly out more quickly if you step up slowly. I think thats the conundrum.
I don't want to try to read Mayo's mind, but I played MLB/ILB for 10 years in both defenses that free you up to roam and one that require you to above all stay home, so I'm familiar with the conflict.

Brace looks like he'll be fine. Warren was getting moved back too easily in preseason when he wasn't shooting a gap. Wright has always struggled when subbing in for Ty Warren, he is much more consistent and harder to move when he's at Nose or in at RDE, I'm really not concerned about him. Deadrick would be my choice for the inactive DL, but if Pryor's knee is bothering he may get some game reps at RDE, there are flashes to suggest he can do the job once he gets his on switch to stay on. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Love playing Nose and Wilfork outside, or the two NTs get used like the Wiliams Bros. or Siragusa/Adams in a 40 front

I saw different in Warren, but admittedly I watched him closer in the first 2 than the last 2. I saw him hold his ground but struggle to disengage and fail badly to be in a football position to make a play on the ball carrier after disengaging.

A point, not to mention this would be an area where Spikes explosiveness might be a better fit.

Dude was born for 3rd and 1

The potential is there, even if it's still only potential in game one.

We will (at least eventually) start 6 players drafted in 09 or 10 in the first 2 rounds (all top 50?) in Brace, McCourty, Butler, Chung, Spikes, Cunnignham to go with the 1s from 3 and 4 years ago, Wilfork and TBC.
If that isnt potential I dont know what is. And I wouldnt want anyone else but BB coaching them up.

Actually Ninkovich was stronger then TBC at this last year, and I think Murrell will be okay, once he adjusted to being used at LDE against NYG he held up okay in the trench fighting.

Ninko didnt play enough for me to feel comfortable in evaluating him last year.

It's hopeful, and of course part of that hope is the aggressive way McCourty supported the run and Chung's speed/power to the mark.

I didnt mention earlier (as if it wasnt long enough already) that the support I talked about on the outside runs is also a stronger group than in the past.

 

[Ring 6]

Interesting analysis of the team's philosophy in regards to defending the run. When I have thought of a team that tried to push opposing running backs laterally where either the sideline or a linebacker would take care of the rest, the first team I think of is Tampa Bay from the late '90's; Warren Sapp would do his job in the middle, a RB would go wide, and Derrick Brooks would wrap him up for no gain.

Two very dissimilar defensive schemes and approaches on how to defend similar opponents.

Yes totally different, arent they.

Tampa= we are so fast we will outrun you to the sideline
NE= we will plug every lane so you have to keep going laterally all the way to the sideline when our pursuit fills in

I think the Patriot approach is more effective in making bigger backs run East West and the Tampa is more effective with the true fast sweep RB.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm thinking that they will rush less this year and pass more. Benson won't be as successful. I just hope we can rush the QB and that our secondary holds up.

I would be pretty certain that BBs gameplan is going to be to take away the run and make them beat us throwing on 2nd and 3rd and long.
They were a ball control run you to death team that averaged barely 18 points a game last year. Adding ancient over the hill TO wont change that.
Just as these are not the 2005 Bengals who were a good offense and threw the ball all over the field, with a deep receiver corps, its not the 2005 TO either.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

In short, I think (a) it sucks, and (b) this will be addressed with our next draft. We never replaced Seymour, so it makes sense to use one of those high picks for him if there's someone with skills.

We run a 3-4 defense and it begins with the front 3. We've gone from an all-pro trio to a great nose tackle and two JAGs. In fairness, these guys are tough to get now since every team used the Patriots blueprint and switched to a similar defensive scheme, looking for Seymour types.

Don't worry, the 2006 Colts had one of the worst run defenses I've ever seen and still won the Super Bowl. The question isn't whether they'll be good at stopping the run (they won't), but whether they're capable of it in a high-intensity game, such as the playoffs, when every team's weaknesses seem to be nullified by pure will.

 

[mgcolby]

This game might very well showcase the 3 best rookie TE's in the NFL.

 

[mgteich]

If we take away the run (or at least minimize the run), McCourty and Butler will often be one-on-one on Ochocinco and TO. It will make for an interesting game. I do agree that this should be our game plan. We don't want to all their running game to reduce the time that Brady is on the field.

I would be pretty certain that BBs gameplan is going to be to take away the run and make them beat us throwing on 2nd and 3rd and long.
They were a ball control run you to death team that averaged barely 18 points a game last year. Adding ancient over the hill TO wont change that.
Just as these are not the 2005 Bengals who were a good offense and threw the ball all over the field, with a deep receiver corps, its not the 2005 TO either.

 

[Patspsycho]

I also wouldn't be surprised to see Love playing Nose and Wilfork outside, or the two NTs get used like the Wiliams Bros. or Siragusa/Adams in a 40 front.

Wouldn't be surprised to see a 40 nickel this Sunday.

 

[Ring 6]

If we take away the run (or at least minimize the run), McCourty and Butler will often be one-on-one on Ochocinco and TO. It will make for an interesting game. I do agree that this should be our game plan. We don't want to all their running game to reduce the time that Brady is on the field.

Not really.
If we take away the run and they run (clearly thats the plan) then we are covering their receivers on 2nd and 3rd and long.
I dont know why it would be a concern to cover those WRs one on one as opposed to any other teams.
We dont have to play man coverage to take away the run either.
I look at it this way. If they run/pass 50/50 on 1st down and we stuff the runs for 2 yards a carry, that was a great game plan. They wont be throwing 60 yard passes on the others.

 

[Ring 6]

Wouldn't be surprised to see a 40 nickel this Sunday.

Do you mean as a base?
I think we will be more concerned with taking away the run than the pass on 1st and 10.

 

[Patspsycho]

Do you mean as a base?
I think we will be more concerned with taking away the run than the pass on 1st and 10.

Yes, I know we will focus on taking away the run, but you have to figure that Palmer is going to go right at the inexperienced corners, because he knows we will set for the run, so should we do 2 shell help over the top but have the ability to walk a DB into the box or spy Gresham in the flats? I keep forgetting McGowan is out, and not sure Page could function in a complex scheme so soon, so perhaps you are right.

I wonder if we will give them a 4-3 over (strongside) look with a hybrid DE/OLB (Murrell). When he hybrids, this would be our 40 look. I think over because I don't see them going at G. Warren with Murrell on the edge. They would have seen the first preseason game and how we crunched the weakside edge on NO.

 

[lillestroom]

We'll find out on Sunday. Cinci is a running team with Ochocinco and TO as their wideouts. They'll run it as much as they can.

We'll get a good benchmark in all areas of our game.

Cincy can really do something this year.

Fantastic secondary. Good O line. Good ground game. Aggressive D.

I think we may be 0-1 by 1700EST.

 

[Richard Camembert]

Yeh, I wonder if the additions of TO and Gresham will really help Palmer attack the middle of the field much more effectively. Also, this is Palmer's second year after the big injury and, like Brady, he can be expected to have more confidence and skill than last year. A good test for the D. And the O is going to be tested too. An exciting game, but it is a home game and I think the Pats will somehow pull this one out.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes, I know we will focus on taking away the run, but you have to figure that Palmer is going to go right at the inexperienced corners, because he knows we will set for the run, so should we do 2 shell help over the top but have the ability to walk a DB into the box or spy Gresham in the flats? I keep forgetting McGowan is out, and not sure Page could function in a complex scheme so soon, so perhaps you are right.

I wonder if we will give them a 4-3 over (strongside) look with a hybrid DE/OLB (Murrell). When he hybrids, this would be our 40 look. I think over because I don't see them going at G. Warren with Murrell on the edge. They would have seen the first preseason game and how we crunched the weakside edge on NO.

I would guess that we would rather have them throw on the base D than run on the nickel on the early downs.
If they go 3 wide on first down we may go to nickle but I wouldnt want to against their normal 2 back, TE, 2 WR sets.

As far as the 43 over, isnt that pretty much the 34 if you call the SOLB a DE? Or are you looking at a different personell groupng?

 

[ausbacker]

I looked at Benson's "situational stats" and how he fares on each type of run.

2009 stats
Wide right - 59 attempts, 209 yards, 3.5 AVG, 0 TD
Right - 77 attempts, 296 yards, 3.8 AVG, 3 TD
Middle - 45 attempts, 157 yards, 3.5 AVG, 0 TD
Left - 69 attempts, 397 yards, 5.8 AVG, 2 TD
Wide Left - 51 attempts, 192 yards, 3.8 AVG, 1 TD

Seems like they run a little better to their left side of the offensive line.

Should be a nice early test for the D-Line and Linebackers.

Given that qualification and BB's penchant for taking away what you do best, you'd think BB would scheme to force the Bengals to run Benson to the right.

Let's not forget Benson had a break out season last year. That could be an aberration (or not) as he's not been close to those sorts of numbers before.

The Bengals were a 10-6 team last season too. On our dung heap, I think we should beat them and beat them well.

 

[lillestroom]

It's Good Enough.

As Wilfork has just said on the radio.... not on the weak side it isnt.

And Bruschi agrees.

 

[reflexblue]

Hoe good is the run defense......Good enough through two weeks. Cinny didn't run on us and the jets broke a big run after Nincompoop missed a tackle

 

[Ring 6]

hat I have seen so far is just what I have expected. We are pretty solid between the Ts, and most susceptible off tackle. Brace has helped this, hopefully Cunnigham will replace Ninkovich soon.
We are not nearly as strong in run D (comparatively) in sub packages as in the base.