How does tagging Cassel impact the salary cap?

[DaBruinz]

I am about as big of a Cassel proponent as they get, but I don't think he is worth $14 million per year.

Also keep in mind when judging how much a team is will to deal for a player they look both at the value of the pick and the cap implications in tandem. Overpriced player is not worth a high draft pick. An underpriced player is worth a high draft pick.

If the Patriots tag and trade the new team gets a one year contract for $14 million. What teams is going to want that? No, if they trade they are going to want a multi-year contract -- say 4 years for $24 million. But why would Cassel agree to restructure after getting tagged. He already has the $14 mill in the bank so in essence he would be agreeing to 3 years for $10 million. Why bother? Refuse to restructure collect $14 million and then the following year his a UFA again.

There are many questions regarding the 2010 season. One of which is what happens to players who were UFAs in 2009, but have less than 6 years experience going into the 2010 season. Because of the current rules regarding the uncapped year, players with less than 6 seasons will be RFAs. Now, while common sense would say that players who have been UFA can't become RFA, this is the NFL we are talking about and the have some strange rules.

So, if Cassel were to only play the one year, he could possible go from being a UFA to an RFA.. Which wouldn't help his cause any. Also, Matt is a player. He isn't going to stand on the sidelines behind Brady again.

IF the Patriots tag Cassel, it will be because they've already reached an agreement with him to let him sign whereever for a certain amount of compensation in draft picks and then they would let Matt go find himself a deal. Otherwise, I can't see the Pats franchising Cassel.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

so why would the patriots risk him signing the offer then they are stuck paying him 14 million and thier whole salary structure is screwed up, stop dreaming hes walking and the pats get a 3rd round comp pick, the players unioun will be all over this , even if the pats traded him what team wants to eat 14 miilion of cap room in one year, put your brains back in your head

you really don't know how things work, do you? whoever trades for him gets an agreement up-front with cassel to work out an extension.......its that simple

 

[DaBruinz]

ya thats why it wont happen we will get a 3rd round compensatory pick in 2010 that whats realistically will happen all this other talk is nonsense and dreams, look at the rules and ramifications , and thats the way it is

Why don't you look at the rules and ramifications and stop living in a box. While you are technically correct that a team can't "trade" a franchised player, they can agree on the compensation for said player that is less than the 2 1st round picks. In essence, a trade.

Also, as I pointed out, we don't know what is going to happen in an uncapped year. Cassel isn't likely to sign a Franchise tag if he goes back to being an RFA for 2010. Players with less than 6 vested years, in an uncapped system, are considered RFAs. However, we don't know if that applies to players who already reached UFA status.

So, while, in all likelihood, the Pats will only get a 3rd round comp pick for Cassel, there is still the potential for more. To say its dreams and nonsense and then claim the rules says it can't happen is nonsense on your part.

 

[DaBruinz]

the collective bargaining agreement states you cant tag someone with the intent to trade him, no team can afford to put 30 million to one position, those are the facts i dont need to read ya hoo thread llike lets tag him and trade him for 3 first rounders

While the rules say that, one only needs to look back to Tebuckey Jones or other Franchised players who have been moved. I can guarantee you tha the Pats never had any intent but to trade Jones when they franchised him.

While I agree that a team can't afford to put 30 million into a single position, I'd be willing to bet the Patriots would do it if they felt it would better their team in the long run.

 

[DaBruinz]

so why would the patriots risk him signing the offer then they are stuck paying him 14 million and thier whole salary structure is screwed up, stop dreaming hes walking and the pats get a 3rd round comp pick, the players unioun will be all over this , even if the pats traded him what team wants to eat 14 miilion of cap room in one year, put your brains back in your head

You are the last person to be telling anyone to put their brain back in their head. There are a few things you don't seem to understand.

1) A team that signs Cassel isn't required to give up 2 1st round picks if a lesser compensation is agreed to. This happened with Tebucky Jones when he signed with New Orleans.

2) A team singing Cassel isn't going to sign him to a 1 year deal at $14 million. They are going to sign him to a longer term deal in the 3-5 year range.

3) A team is only going to sign Cassel if they can get him at an agreeable price and an agreeable compensation. And The Patriots can let Cassel know ahead of time what they would find agreeable and for which team.

 

[patsgo]

you really don't know how things work, do you? whoever trades for him gets an agreement up-front with cassel to work out an extension.......its that simple

14 miilion gauranteed money???? you dont get it casseel can sign the deal gaurantee himself and family 14 million then be a free agent next year, whos going to give him 14 million up front?

 

[patsgo]

You are the last person to be telling anyone to put their brain back in their head. There are a few things you don't seem to understand.

1) A team that signs Cassel isn't required to give up 2 1st round picks if a lesser compensation is agreed to. This happened with Tebucky Jones when he signed with New Orleans.

2) A team singing Cassel isn't going to sign him to a 1 year deal at $14 million. They are going to sign him to a longer term deal in the 3-5 year range.

3) A team is only going to sign Cassel if they can get him at an agreeable price and an agreeable compensation. And The Patriots can let Cassel know ahead of time what they would find agreeable and for which team.

the tebucky jones siaution is totally different, the union would know whats going on and will be all over it, a starting qb is a little more visible than a average or below averge safety, plus the pats could argue they wanted to keep and start jones, not the case with cassell with brady in the wings

 

[tanked_as_usual]

14 miilion gauranteed money???? you dont get it casseel can sign the deal gaurantee himself and family 14 million then be a free agent next year, whos going to give him 14 million up front?

they gave aaron rodgers 20M guaranteed..........plus his salary over a number of years........

I was right, you don't get it

 

[patsgo]

they gave aaron rodgers 20M guaranteed..........plus his salary over a number of years........

I was right, you don't get it

time will tell wont it , tagging and trading is not allowed ill stand by my predictions

 

[BelichickFan]

We're sitting on a pot of gold and some of you don't want to admit it. If Cassel continues like this, he will be worth a lot - what is the value of a proven young QB vs. a Mathew Stafford or Sam Bradford who would also get a monster deal. I know what one I would take.

I expect the Patriots will have had talks with other teams prior to Franchising him but they will Franchise him as long as he plays well the rest of the way. Regarding the "illegality" of it - our QB is coming off major knee surgery and a setback. He won't be ready to play when we Franchise him. It will be 100% legit to say we're Franchising him for values and reasons other than just to restrict his movement.

 

[BelichickFan]

tagging and trading is not allowed ill stand by my predictions

Get a grip. It is allowed and it happens all the time.

 

[BelichickFan]

time will tell wont it , tagging and trading is not allowed ill stand by my predictions

Here's the latest example from last year :

Browns trade for Pack DL Williams - Cleveland Sports News ? The Latest Breaking News, Game Recaps and Scores from The Plain Dealer

"Williams, 27, supposedly was taken off the free-agent market when the Packers gave him the franchise tag of $6.3 million. But they shied from investing long term in the fifth-year player and actively shopped him late in the week."

Do you actually think you know what you're talking about ??? Quit embarrassing yourself.

 

[BradyManny]

Why don't you look at the rules and ramifications and stop living in a box. While you are technically correct that a team can't "trade" a franchised player, they can agree on the compensation for said player that is less than the 2 1st round picks. In essence, a trade.

Also, as I pointed out, we don't know what is going to happen in an uncapped year. Cassel isn't likely to sign a Franchise tag if he goes back to being an RFA for 2010. Players with less than 6 vested years, in an uncapped system, are considered RFAs. However, we don't know if that applies to players who already reached UFA status.

So, while, in all likelihood, the Pats will only get a 3rd round comp pick for Cassel, there is still the potential for more. To say its dreams and nonsense and then claim the rules says it can't happen is nonsense on your part.

I disagree - the Pats will either tag and trade Cassel - or they use the $$ on someone else, therefore negating the comp pick. The scenario in which Cassel earns us a comp pick seems unlikely, IMO. We're either going to be players in free agency (and not tag Cassel) or we aren't (and tag and trade Cassel).

Personally, I'd rather earmark the cap space for a while, tag him and trade him, and continue to build through the draft. Then once the $14 milli is freed up, we can go about extending any of the Pats coming up to free agency in 09 or 10: Wilfork, Seymour, Mankins, Brady, Kaczur, etc., and anyone else who will be key to our success in the upcoming years.

So basically, Cassel is going to play a huge part in dictating the approach the Pats take this offseason.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

time will tell wont it , tagging and trading is not allowed ill stand by my predictions

Yes it is. The first player ever tagged was traded. Players are tagged and traded almost every season. The JETS tagged Abraham in 2005 and promised a long term deal after the first tag. Then Mangini and Tannenbaum inherited a team and cap that needed reconfiguring so they tagged him again only to trade him. Got a late first from Atlanta (that Atlanta had to swap picks with Denver to acquire) who was initially offering a 2nd (Mangini asked for the 2nd and Schaub...) because Seattle was offering their 1st.

Jared Allen was tagged and traded by KC this season because they were entering a rebuild and didn't want to retain an expensive DE nor did he want to play for them through one.

 

[Real World]

I just can't see the Patriots letting Cassel go for nothing. Look at the return Matt Shaubb got Atlanta just a couple of years ago. With teams like Detroit, the 49'ers, KC, Chicago, and Minnesotta (they'd be damn good with a legit QB) all in need of a franchise QB, I'm with BF in thinking we're sitting on gold here. The Pats will more than likely sit down with Matt & his agent, and see if there is some common ground on making all sides happy. My guess is that while he'd love $14 million for a single season, he'd prefer a long term deal and a guaranteed starting position more so. In any case it's going to be an interesting offseason.


Do we know the tag is going to be $14 million for QB next season?

 

[Miguel]

Do we know the tag is going to be $14 million for QB next season?

Since I was the person who first posted the $14 million number, I should explain how I came up with it.

Based on reading
NFL Players Association › Member Services
and seeing prior franchise tag numbers I looked for the quarterbacks with 5 adjusted cap numbers. By adjusted I mean that the franchise number calculation excludes offseason workout bonuses numbers and LTBE incentives.

For the 2008 season they are

Peyton Manning Indianapolis $18,700,000
Tom Brady New England $14,620,000
Carson Palmer Cincinnati $13,980,001
Aaron Rodgers Green Bay $13,952,500
Brett Favre NY Jets $12,000,000

Average - $14,651,000

I think that it is very unlikely that any of the 5 numbers will change between now and February when the tag number is officially announced.

Where did I get the numbers???

From looking around the web and doing some legwork on my own.

USATODAY.com

 

[mgteich]

CAP HIT
Let's first consider the fiction that we can't afford to tag Cassel. Miguel's 2009 cap tag page indicates that after signing the ERFA's and RFA's, we have a total of $16.2M of cap space left with 52 players signed ($23.8M total less $7.6M spent). I'd probably use some of the $2.2M left after franchising Cassel to increase the tender on Woods over Miguel's amount). I would also extend Evans and Paxton.

GOING INTO FREE AGENCY
So I would have about $1M or so going into free agency. Veteran free agents and low level free agent or two is all I can then afford without a restructuring (which we have always been able to work out when needed). Since I would want to extend Wright and Gafney, one restructuring MIGHT be needed before Cassel is traded.

THE BIG QUESTION FOR ME
How long should we wait to trade Cassel? Should we be pretty sure that Brady will be healthy? I would expect Cassel to sign the tender. Why shouldn't he?

THE WORST CASE
If no team wants Cassel in March or April, we might have to wait until after the draft to trade him. Is that such a terrible thing? There is exactly zero question in my mind that there would be no market for Cassel by mid-April (to a team that his agent went out and talked with). However, if I'm wrong, we can trade for whatever we can get in May, after the draft.

 

[patsgo]

Here's the latest example from last year :

Browns trade for Pack DL Williams - Cleveland Sports News ? The Latest Breaking News, Game Recaps and Scores from The Plain Dealer

"Williams, 27, supposedly was taken off the free-agent market when the Packers gave him the franchise tag of $6.3 million. But they shied from investing long term in the fifth-year player and actively shopped him late in the week."

Do you actually think you know what you're talking about ??? Quit embarrassing yourself.

your embarrassing your self because you dont understand that it s not supposed to happen, this will be a high profile player with the rest of the league watching, and they wont let the pats get away with it, its funny on weei they are saying the same thing as i am , i guess they dont know what they are talking about either??they arent laying out 14 million to him and they arent signing him to a long term contract, if you dont get it its your problem mr. know it all

 

[Miguel]

CAP HIT
Let's first consider the fiction that we can't afford to tag Cassel. Miguel's 2009 cap tag page indicates that after signing the ERFA's and RFA's, we have a total of $16.2M of cap space left with 52 players signed ($23.8M total less $7.6M spent). I'd probably use some of the $2.2M left after franchising Cassel to increase the tender on Woods over Miguel's amount). I would also extend Evans and Paxton.

You are not accounting for the fact that Patriots players have reached escalators.

 

[hallfamebrady]

Some very good points brought up in the discussion. Here is the way I see it.

1. I would tag Cassel if the signs if Brady is a question mark, if we do not have to cut a large number of players to be under the cap at the start of FA (a big point many people are missing), and if we can sign a top flight CB. I am unsure of the of the Pats cap number for 2009.

2. How is 2009 affected by the looming uncapped 2010 is a big issue? I recall the year before the cap has some special provisions in regards to how long a signing bonus can be spread out which might cap some teams out.

3. The longer Cassel is on the cap without a trade is money tied up in resources we can not spend until he is traded. The best talent is off the market by then.