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How do we punish laziness?

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatriotsReign, Feb 2, 2009.

  1. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    After re-evaluating my title, that's a fair question. My own personal wish is that each American has the choice of whether to pursue any level of wealth they desire. I would never want everyone to have the same level of wealth with no options...net/net, we should always have that choice.

    So when considering other options pertaining to economic systems, the thought came to me that no person who is willing to work hard should have to live like someone who really doesn't care. Of course I realize that happens in many cases regardless even under our current system. but the important point is, if you're willing to work & study hard, it is possible to achieve your desired goal.

    It also ocurred to me that people who don't wish to work hard are in the vast majority of cases, punished for their lack of motivation. and I think that is right and just. So my title was more or less one of the focal points of my thoughts.
  2. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    We needed to elect a fresh somewhat young President to inspire what JFK said we all should be inspired to do anyways. I have thought this for some time and I believe when the Obama magic wanes the lazy will return to being lazy, the industrious will prosper and those inbetween will be choked with taxes ... same as it ever was.
  3. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    First of all, I'm a traditional conservative when it comes to financial issues. BUT, I think that if there were a system where all humans were guaranteed at minimum food and health-care, there would still be an incentive/motivation for people to work and not be lazy in order to create comfort and live better quality lives. Also, there would also be incentive for most males to work, unless somehow there is a major shift in female psychology where women don't mind a bunch of stay at home hubbies.

    Basically, if you kept capitalism but guaranteed some basic things like food and health-care, I don't see how that eliminates most people's motivation to work.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009
  4. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    I think common sense would say chances are you're right. After all, human nature is what it is. But one thing is for sure, we can not under-estimate the power of the human spirit and human behavior can never be predicted.

    After all, who would have thought vitamins would be selling better than they ever have in history...but that's what's happening. I know that seems like a strange example I chose, but I work for a vitamin company.

    Depending upon how bad the times we are now in end up getting will determine the extend of the change in our behavior. If it doesn't get too much worse or last that long, we'll see little change. but if we endure historic economic suffering, the change will be far more dramatic and lasting. Not necessarily for the better or worse...it could go either way.
  5. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    It's a deep philosophical issue pertaining to labor, wealth, society.

    I believe that even if there is universal health care, guaranteed food and even maybe housing, that so long as we retain property/IP rights and a merit-based pay system regulated by generally free markets, that the hardest working, smartest, and/or most talented workers will end up with the motivation to keep working.

    I just cannot envision a world where a bum of a guy can be considered an attractive male such that over time (tens of generations), his bum genes procreate more than a productive male.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009
  6. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    You surprised me Mav. Nice post! I agree with with you. I'm also more fiscally conservative and socially liberal. I'd like to see some basic guarantees for minimum living conditions as well. That in itself could serve as the great equalizer in our society. Although I don't think everyone should get the same, I do believe we all deserve equal opportunity...or at least a more equal opportunity.
  7. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    It is predictable and makes sense that in a horrible economy, alternative type medicines (which are much cheaper) would skyrocket in popularity.
  8. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    Not many of my co's products are taken as alternative medicine but more preventative and/or hopes for future health.

    Much of what is happening is a shift from specialty stores like GNC and Vitamin World to mainstream channels like grocery, drug and mass merchandisers. Since our products are sold in these less expensive channels, we are seeing significant growth. also, people are buying less from network marketing companies like Reliv which tend to be very expensive as well.
  9. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Interesting. Which channels are less expensive, the specialty stores or the mainstream ones for you?

    The vitamins could be taken as preventative I agree, but I see the rise in alternative medicine spending making sense as America's economy collapses. Alternative medicines (I consider vitamins in this category) are already very popular in other places like in South America, Asia, Middle East, etc... basically spending shifts toward cheaper alternatives in less affluent populations, and we are seeing that now.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009
  10. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    We've already established that we don't agree on the ultimate collapse of our economy...you think it will happen & I think it is unlikely...so that's all I'll say about that.

    I'm sure there is some level of shift from pharma products to vitamins, but the data isn't available to measure it. so it's speculation, but very reasonable speculation.

    The grocery, drug and mass merch channels are much less expensive than GNC and Vitamin World (and the like). All of them utilize "buy one, get one free" promotional strategies almost every week on various brands. WalMart is the only retailer who has successfully implemented an everyday low price strategy...which is not surprising since that is their signature.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009
  11. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Interesting, I always thought it was harder to get into mainstream channels like grocery stores and the like? Or, maybe it's harder but cheaper? [edit] Maybe I misread and what you meant about those cheaper channels were that they were cheaper for the end consumer
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009
  12. Stokes

    Stokes Rookie

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    Yes I love the civics idea, along with more real world skills like balancing a checkbook, understanding credit, etc.

    There are 2 concepts from my post that are getting mixed together. First is the idea of a government less involved in our everyday lives. I don't want to stop aid to drug addicts, though I would like gov't support of private programs that work like some of those run by the salvation army rather than gov't-run programs. I just don't think the government has the right to tell me what to do with my body in the privacy of my own home. Why can't a person come home on a Friday night and smoke a joint or blow a couple lines if they want to? We let them drink themselves to death and smoke 3 packs a day, but those other things are wrong? What's the difference between smoking opium and going to the doctor for stress/insomnia and getting legal downers? If I want to own an assault rifle to shoot at the range or hunt with why can't I? Assault rifles are cool! I can't have one, but we know we already have unenforceable gun laws in place, and while I can't have one through legal channels, the gang bangers have arsenals that would make the US soldiers in Iraq jealous. I'm also against stuff like the old sodomy laws, laws against flag burning or hate speech, or lunacy like the fairness doctrine. Same with internet speech or online gambling (or really any gambling law I suppose). Food and smoking laws are another ridiculous infringement of gov't into our personal lives. If I want to eat trans fat I should be able to. Gov't was not meant to be the parental figures in our lives, telling us what we should eat, drink, read/write/listen to, or otherwise running our personal lives.

    As for personal responsibility, I didn't mean end aid for addicts or welfare for the needy, but at some point people need to see that there isn't a safety net for any stupid decision they make. Short term this would cause more pain, but I don't see a better way to end the pattern of bad behavior being rewarded leading to more bad behavior. If you bought a $400K house and could only afford a $200K house the government shouldn't consider forgiving the debt because you were too stupid to realize what you did. If you made a bunch of sketchy loans to people that couldn't pay you don't deserve to have taxpayers bail you out so you can do it again. If you get addicted to drugs you need the help obviously, but maybe you owe for your treatment, either in the form of wage garnishment once you're back on your feet, or volunteer service helping others recover. Why tax foreign autos so they're more expensive for Americans so that a failing US industry with overpaid underworked union workers and disgusting execs can continue down the gutter? Why not prosecute those found to have defrauded the welfare system? There's a million examples like this, emergency room care for those that refuse to buy health insurance, benefits and tax rebate checks for illegal immigrants, ridiculous corporate tax rates while allowing loopholes and offshore investment, no accountability for failing schools, no repercussion for frivolous lawsuits, on and on. Hard working Americans are increasingly asked to support the unacceptable actions of others and what does it net other than MORE support for the same people?

    I'm not saying let's end social programs, but let's try and find some creative solutions that punish abusers of the system, while still covering those really in need.
  13. Stokes

    Stokes Rookie

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    Girls love a guy that treats them like crap, thus the slacker/loser genes will continue to be spread. Also don't underestimate the ability of males to present themselves as promising young go-getters before revealing themselves as mouth breathing couch potatoes after hooking a wife. How do you think I got married?
  14. Stokes

    Stokes Rookie

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    This also ends up being a great example of wiser use of our aid dollars, a one-time payment for permanent residence for the homeless rather than a neverending stream of money for temporary shelter.
  15. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well the economy is in trouble but the earth is getting the most vitamin rich human waste it has ever seen. Future generations will see that we were full of sh!t and we made some real sh!tty decisions ... but we were very healthy doing it.;)
  16. PatriotsReign

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    Mainstream channel products retail for much lower prices than you'll find in specialty stores. We can't sell our products at GNC or Vitamin World since they only sell their own products. The only way we could do that would be to open retail stores of our own. but that would upset our retailer partners since we'd be competing directly against them.

    If you look at the demographics of the GNC/Vitamin World consumer vs. the mainstream channel consumers, they're totally different animals. The GNC/Vitamin World consumer is much younger and geared toward sports fitness while our customer is 50+ yrs old with income above $100K
  17. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    A couple of points.

    Stokes for president? :woot:

    Our system is already a mix of socialism and capitalism.

    It's not so much a "punishment" of laziness, as it is a matter of not rewarding those who are lazy, and rely on someone else's hard work.

    Anyone who supports themselves independently, and imposes no burden on his fellow taxpayer, can be as lazy as they want. Any individual, regardless of their financial standing, can be as lazy as they want. The issue with laziness comes when such people are dependent on the hard earned dollars, and sweat, of a taxpaying american. That's the difference. IF I chose to sleep on the streets, be poor, and eat from a garbage can cuz I don't want to work, then that's my right. If I want an apartment, to be fed, cared for, etc. while not working, and thus at the expense of someone else, then that's wrong.

    People have to understand that the more freebies you give someone, the more dependent they become.

    Welfare should be limited. It should require job training, and should not be a lifetime reward for irresponsibility. A recipient who is able bodied, should not be allowed to collect for the rest of their life. Those who are unable to provide for themselves, through no fault of their own, should be helped. The losers I see, who simply don't want to work, and bleed the system, should be put out on the streets.
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2009
  18. Stokes

    Stokes Rookie

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    Together we can RW!

    Seriously though I don't think I have nice enough hair to be elected.
  19. STFarmy

    STFarmy Rookie

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    Seconded. i would like a Stokes/PR ticket. Nice balance.
  20. Stokes

    Stokes Rookie

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    Hmm, PR how many skeletons do you have in your closet? Mine's pretty full, maybe you lead the ticket and I'll be the amusing Joe Biden/Sarah Palin character for VP that nobody takes too seriously...

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