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How do we punish laziness?

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatriotsReign, Feb 2, 2009.

  1. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    Under the current system of capitalism, laziness is results in it's own punishment...and rightfully so. After all, if a citizen isn't really motivated to achieve and strive to better themselves, they don't deserve a life on par with someone who is.

    Of course we have to discount the lazy people born into wealth...that's for another discussion. I bring this up for a discussion with those who would like to see another system other than capitalism. How does socialism or communism punish laziness? Do they enjoy the same circumstances of the more motived achievers. What a horrible view on life that would be.

    I think motivation and achievement should always be rewarded and laziness, punished.
  2. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Leave Them Alone Long Enough And They'll Go Fishing
  3. Synovia

    Synovia Rookie

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    I think your assumption that it happens in capitalism is wrong. I also think that your assumptions that it would be worse in socialism or communism are also wrong.
  4. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    You stop laziness by not rewarding it. We run a welfare state in this country, and thus laziness is constantly rewarded.

    Socialism and communism ABSOLUTELY make people more lazy. You do less in those societies as is. There is little incentive to work harder, since the reward is either non-existent (communism), or severely impeded (high taxation of socialist systems).
  5. Stokes

    Stokes Rookie

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    I'd say that rather than make it about laziness we should be talking about personal responsibility. Yes, laziness is a problem, but more of a problem is the total lack of consequences for one's actions in the USA right now. Yes, there are lazy people that defraud the welfare system, lazy parents that don't raise their kids, but there are also people that work very hard but do so to screw others over! The CEO that works 15 hours a day figuring out how to increase his bonus while cutting jobs is no more deserving of praise than the welfare case just because he's working hard. What we need is to shape the law to emphasize responsibility. Parents need to be responsible for raising their children properly. CEOs need to be responsible for the poor performance of their companies (not bailed out thus encouraging them to make the same risky moves they made the first time). Union workers need to be held accountable for making sure they get the more out of doing less. Executives need to be held accountable for shameless salary bumps while laying off workers. Illegals need to be held accountable for breaking the law. On and on. My basic feeling is the less we ask the government to do for us the better off we are. That said I'm not totally against spending on social programs or anything. I like programs that reward achievement (like for example the policy Romney implemented in MA where the top 5 of every HS class are eligible for a free ride at a state university), as well as those that place the onus on the individual rather than the government. There I think of things like making parents liable for crimes committed by their kids (say the kids are gang-bangers, maybe those laws already exist?), or on the hook for the cost of their kid's education if they're failing out of school. How about linking CEO bonuses to personal liability in case of losses by the company? I'd like that because I don't like saying a company can't pay a CEO whatever they want, but maybe it helps to combat corporate excess and stop CEOs from operating in a vacuum. On personal issues (drug use, trans fat laws, gun control, hate speech, etc) I want the government out of it, let people do what they want but punish those that do wrong (drunk driving, shooting crimes, etc).

    Right now we are rewarding people for being stupid (defaulting on mortgages, having welfare babies, becoming drug addicts, etc), lazy (US auto unions, welfare cheats), greedy (CEOs/execs), and even criminal (illegals, etc). We should re-focus on how to reward people doing the right thing and stop bailing out everyone that's bringing us down!
  6. Lifer

    Lifer Banned

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    let 'em starve, eh?

    how about their children?
  7. 363839

    363839 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Don't worry about them.
    Karma will settle things eventually.
  8. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    Living on welfare is punishment in my opinion RW. How is that a reward?
  9. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    If you read my post, I said I support our current system. So if somone want to publically embaress themselves by living on welfard, then so be it...that in itself is punishment because of the lack of respect people on welfare get.

    This is about "how would another system punish laziness and free-loading?"
  10. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    If I could type as articulately, and eloquently as you Stokes, I'd have posted the same. :D
  11. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Save the Children!
  12. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Say what? You don't know half my tenants then.
  13. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Why the focus on punishment? I think it's more important to reward hard work, which both capitalism and communism do, but to different degrees. Even Marx had no use for the lazy (as well as people who earned their living by stealing, running brothels, etc.), referring to them as the lumpenproletariat. They would be punished by sending them to work camps or prisons, really not much different than we treat such people.

    Why do you think it's convenient to separate the wealthy lazy from the poor lazy?

    Also, how would you define lazy? I once read that Rupert Murdoch (who I hardly admire) said his biggest regret was that he only worked 120 hours/week, when he had 140/week in waking time. Also, is the investor who works an hour/day lazy? Is the unemployed person who gives up on job hunting lazy? Is they young and immature? Is someone with a sleep disorder or other vague illness that causes lethargy lazy? In my internship I try to help some "lazy" people. They are mentally ill, drug addicts, some were victims of terrible abuse (such as beatings that led to brain damage or rape in a home they do not know how to get out). They can't work. They are just so troubled, yet so innocent of this kind of political dialog, and the cynicism of your question. I don't think you can define "lazy."

    Basically, we have to take care of our neighbor if only to prevent our own neighborhoods from becoming less appealing because of more beggars, more crime, families living on the street, etc. So, we do the minimum necessary for that vague group of lazy people to keep our neighborhoods nice.

    That said, I think we should tax the hell out of the wealthy lazy, but I'm not sure there's a way to implement that.

    In a sense, we should use the "lazy" to do what's in our own interest, but at the same time honor and respect their human rights and dignity. But, again, "lazy" is a very hard word to define.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009
  14. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    OHhhhhh....the children!!:eek:
  15. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    Only in capitalism can you have "lazy wealthy" people...that's why I separated them. In our society, their parents bought their right to be lazy...but I don't like it one bit. A wealthy person shouldn't be able to be lazy either, but I have much less of a problem with lazy wealthy people because they don't live off others' money.

    Let's start our definition of laziness as one who puts no effort into finding a job or has a consistent history of not working. I'm not looking to re-define anything...like i said, I like the current system with the exception that I believe welfare should be limitted in duration and include training that FORCES people to work & contribute to society.
  16. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Personal responsibility is fine, and I would be all for civics and ethics being taught in grade school as a subject on par with English, history, and math. But, how would you implement it for everyone else? I don't think you can implement it.

    Punishing the irresponsible or not helping them out of their self-made messes leads to all sorts of social and economic ills. Certainly there are cases where gun control laws, drug laws, and hate laws are needed to manage those who do take personal responsibility? There are cases where bailouts are needed to manage that same group. In the absence of personal responsibility, you need extra social programs and laws. Do you have a better idea?
  17. patsfan13

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    What do we do with children who are abused now? We remove them from the custody of the abuser.
  18. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    You don't "punish" laziness but you don't get anything for nothing. You get no welfare, no food stamps, no health care without working. No job ? Fine. You can work for the government cleaning up trash, graffiti, whatever, for your welfare. And you get paid for those hours. No work no handouts. Kids ? If you can't provide for them then they go somewhere where they can be provided for.
  19. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    why do people think of socialism as everything being completely equal? such as each citizen earning $50,000 a year for salary. to be honest there is no such think as complete socialism. not every person works the same amount of hours and days thus the hourly wage would never be completely equal.

    i think we need to find the median between capitalism and socialism. capitalism has it's pluses and many minuses like pollution, job outsourcing, beting down of technology(like fuel efficient vehicles) and socialism has some negatives if it were completely implimented.

    in the end isn't it about greed and wanting to consume as many resources as possible? how much does one person need?

    I've always had a problem with someone who is 300 pounds and eats as much as they want yet there are people starving in this world.

    or the person who heats a 5000 sq ft house yet there are people sleeping on the cold streets.

    If you don't have compassion for people and want to help them despite their flaws of addiction or illness or anything else I don't think you can really call yourself a human being
  20. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    you serious? most if not all past governments have been under the guise of a monarchy or dictator and many of them have been lazy. I'm sure Stalin enjoyed himself at the expense of the people.

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