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How do we punish laziness?

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatriotsReign, Feb 2, 2009.

  1. PatriotsReign

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    Under the current system of capitalism, laziness is results in it's own punishment...and rightfully so. After all, if a citizen isn't really motivated to achieve and strive to better themselves, they don't deserve a life on par with someone who is.

    Of course we have to discount the lazy people born into wealth...that's for another discussion. I bring this up for a discussion with those who would like to see another system other than capitalism. How does socialism or communism punish laziness? Do they enjoy the same circumstances of the more motived achievers. What a horrible view on life that would be.

    I think motivation and achievement should always be rewarded and laziness, punished.
  2. Harry Boy

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  3. Synovia

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    I think your assumption that it happens in capitalism is wrong. I also think that your assumptions that it would be worse in socialism or communism are also wrong.
  4. Real World

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    You stop laziness by not rewarding it. We run a welfare state in this country, and thus laziness is constantly rewarded.

    Socialism and communism ABSOLUTELY make people more lazy. You do less in those societies as is. There is little incentive to work harder, since the reward is either non-existent (communism), or severely impeded (high taxation of socialist systems).
  5. Stokes

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    I'd say that rather than make it about laziness we should be talking about personal responsibility. Yes, laziness is a problem, but more of a problem is the total lack of consequences for one's actions in the USA right now. Yes, there are lazy people that defraud the welfare system, lazy parents that don't raise their kids, but there are also people that work very hard but do so to screw others over! The CEO that works 15 hours a day figuring out how to increase his bonus while cutting jobs is no more deserving of praise than the welfare case just because he's working hard. What we need is to shape the law to emphasize responsibility. Parents need to be responsible for raising their children properly. CEOs need to be responsible for the poor performance of their companies (not bailed out thus encouraging them to make the same risky moves they made the first time). Union workers need to be held accountable for making sure they get the more out of doing less. Executives need to be held accountable for shameless salary bumps while laying off workers. Illegals need to be held accountable for breaking the law. On and on. My basic feeling is the less we ask the government to do for us the better off we are. That said I'm not totally against spending on social programs or anything. I like programs that reward achievement (like for example the policy Romney implemented in MA where the top 5 of every HS class are eligible for a free ride at a state university), as well as those that place the onus on the individual rather than the government. There I think of things like making parents liable for crimes committed by their kids (say the kids are gang-bangers, maybe those laws already exist?), or on the hook for the cost of their kid's education if they're failing out of school. How about linking CEO bonuses to personal liability in case of losses by the company? I'd like that because I don't like saying a company can't pay a CEO whatever they want, but maybe it helps to combat corporate excess and stop CEOs from operating in a vacuum. On personal issues (drug use, trans fat laws, gun control, hate speech, etc) I want the government out of it, let people do what they want but punish those that do wrong (drunk driving, shooting crimes, etc).

    Right now we are rewarding people for being stupid (defaulting on mortgages, having welfare babies, becoming drug addicts, etc), lazy (US auto unions, welfare cheats), greedy (CEOs/execs), and even criminal (illegals, etc). We should re-focus on how to reward people doing the right thing and stop bailing out everyone that's bringing us down!
  6. Lifer

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    let 'em starve, eh?

    how about their children?
  7. 363839

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  8. PatriotsReign

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    Living on welfare is punishment in my opinion RW. How is that a reward?
  9. PatriotsReign

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    If you read my post, I said I support our current system. So if somone want to publically embaress themselves by living on welfard, then so be it...that in itself is punishment because of the lack of respect people on welfare get.

    This is about "how would another system punish laziness and free-loading?"
  10. Real World

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    If I could type as articulately, and eloquently as you Stokes, I'd have posted the same. :D
  11. Real World

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  12. Real World

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  13. Patters

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    Why the focus on punishment? I think it's more important to reward hard work, which both capitalism and communism do, but to different degrees. Even Marx had no use for the lazy (as well as people who earned their living by stealing, running brothels, etc.), referring to them as the lumpenproletariat. They would be punished by sending them to work camps or prisons, really not much different than we treat such people.

    Why do you think it's convenient to separate the wealthy lazy from the poor lazy?

    Also, how would you define lazy? I once read that Rupert Murdoch (who I hardly admire) said his biggest regret was that he only worked 120 hours/week, when he had 140/week in waking time. Also, is the investor who works an hour/day lazy? Is the unemployed person who gives up on job hunting lazy? Is they young and immature? Is someone with a sleep disorder or other vague illness that causes lethargy lazy? In my internship I try to help some "lazy" people. They are mentally ill, drug addicts, some were victims of terrible abuse (such as beatings that led to brain damage or rape in a home they do not know how to get out). They can't work. They are just so troubled, yet so innocent of this kind of political dialog, and the cynicism of your question. I don't think you can define "lazy."

    Basically, we have to take care of our neighbor if only to prevent our own neighborhoods from becoming less appealing because of more beggars, more crime, families living on the street, etc. So, we do the minimum necessary for that vague group of lazy people to keep our neighborhoods nice.

    That said, I think we should tax the hell out of the wealthy lazy, but I'm not sure there's a way to implement that.

    In a sense, we should use the "lazy" to do what's in our own interest, but at the same time honor and respect their human rights and dignity. But, again, "lazy" is a very hard word to define.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009
  14. PatriotsReign

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  15. PatriotsReign

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    Only in capitalism can you have "lazy wealthy" people...that's why I separated them. In our society, their parents bought their right to be lazy...but I don't like it one bit. A wealthy person shouldn't be able to be lazy either, but I have much less of a problem with lazy wealthy people because they don't live off others' money.

    Let's start our definition of laziness as one who puts no effort into finding a job or has a consistent history of not working. I'm not looking to re-define anything...like i said, I like the current system with the exception that I believe welfare should be limitted in duration and include training that FORCES people to work & contribute to society.
  16. Patters

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    Personal responsibility is fine, and I would be all for civics and ethics being taught in grade school as a subject on par with English, history, and math. But, how would you implement it for everyone else? I don't think you can implement it.

    Punishing the irresponsible or not helping them out of their self-made messes leads to all sorts of social and economic ills. Certainly there are cases where gun control laws, drug laws, and hate laws are needed to manage those who do take personal responsibility? There are cases where bailouts are needed to manage that same group. In the absence of personal responsibility, you need extra social programs and laws. Do you have a better idea?
  17. patsfan13

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  18. BelichickFan

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    You don't "punish" laziness but you don't get anything for nothing. You get no welfare, no food stamps, no health care without working. No job ? Fine. You can work for the government cleaning up trash, graffiti, whatever, for your welfare. And you get paid for those hours. No work no handouts. Kids ? If you can't provide for them then they go somewhere where they can be provided for.
  19. MrBigglesWorth

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    why do people think of socialism as everything being completely equal? such as each citizen earning $50,000 a year for salary. to be honest there is no such think as complete socialism. not every person works the same amount of hours and days thus the hourly wage would never be completely equal.

    i think we need to find the median between capitalism and socialism. capitalism has it's pluses and many minuses like pollution, job outsourcing, beting down of technology(like fuel efficient vehicles) and socialism has some negatives if it were completely implimented.

    in the end isn't it about greed and wanting to consume as many resources as possible? how much does one person need?

    I've always had a problem with someone who is 300 pounds and eats as much as they want yet there are people starving in this world.

    or the person who heats a 5000 sq ft house yet there are people sleeping on the cold streets.

    If you don't have compassion for people and want to help them despite their flaws of addiction or illness or anything else I don't think you can really call yourself a human being
  20. MrBigglesWorth

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    you serious? most if not all past governments have been under the guise of a monarchy or dictator and many of them have been lazy. I'm sure Stalin enjoyed himself at the expense of the people.
  21. PatriotsReign

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    After re-evaluating my title, that's a fair question. My own personal wish is that each American has the choice of whether to pursue any level of wealth they desire. I would never want everyone to have the same level of wealth with no options...net/net, we should always have that choice.

    So when considering other options pertaining to economic systems, the thought came to me that no person who is willing to work hard should have to live like someone who really doesn't care. Of course I realize that happens in many cases regardless even under our current system. but the important point is, if you're willing to work & study hard, it is possible to achieve your desired goal.

    It also ocurred to me that people who don't wish to work hard are in the vast majority of cases, punished for their lack of motivation. and I think that is right and just. So my title was more or less one of the focal points of my thoughts.
  22. IcyPatriot

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    We needed to elect a fresh somewhat young President to inspire what JFK said we all should be inspired to do anyways. I have thought this for some time and I believe when the Obama magic wanes the lazy will return to being lazy, the industrious will prosper and those inbetween will be choked with taxes ... same as it ever was.
  23. maverick4

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    First of all, I'm a traditional conservative when it comes to financial issues. BUT, I think that if there were a system where all humans were guaranteed at minimum food and health-care, there would still be an incentive/motivation for people to work and not be lazy in order to create comfort and live better quality lives. Also, there would also be incentive for most males to work, unless somehow there is a major shift in female psychology where women don't mind a bunch of stay at home hubbies.

    Basically, if you kept capitalism but guaranteed some basic things like food and health-care, I don't see how that eliminates most people's motivation to work.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009
  24. PatriotsReign

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    I think common sense would say chances are you're right. After all, human nature is what it is. But one thing is for sure, we can not under-estimate the power of the human spirit and human behavior can never be predicted.

    After all, who would have thought vitamins would be selling better than they ever have in history...but that's what's happening. I know that seems like a strange example I chose, but I work for a vitamin company.

    Depending upon how bad the times we are now in end up getting will determine the extend of the change in our behavior. If it doesn't get too much worse or last that long, we'll see little change. but if we endure historic economic suffering, the change will be far more dramatic and lasting. Not necessarily for the better or worse...it could go either way.
  25. maverick4

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    It's a deep philosophical issue pertaining to labor, wealth, society.

    I believe that even if there is universal health care, guaranteed food and even maybe housing, that so long as we retain property/IP rights and a merit-based pay system regulated by generally free markets, that the hardest working, smartest, and/or most talented workers will end up with the motivation to keep working.

    I just cannot envision a world where a bum of a guy can be considered an attractive male such that over time (tens of generations), his bum genes procreate more than a productive male.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009
  26. PatriotsReign

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    You surprised me Mav. Nice post! I agree with with you. I'm also more fiscally conservative and socially liberal. I'd like to see some basic guarantees for minimum living conditions as well. That in itself could serve as the great equalizer in our society. Although I don't think everyone should get the same, I do believe we all deserve equal opportunity...or at least a more equal opportunity.
  27. maverick4

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    It is predictable and makes sense that in a horrible economy, alternative type medicines (which are much cheaper) would skyrocket in popularity.
  28. PatriotsReign

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    Not many of my co's products are taken as alternative medicine but more preventative and/or hopes for future health.

    Much of what is happening is a shift from specialty stores like GNC and Vitamin World to mainstream channels like grocery, drug and mass merchandisers. Since our products are sold in these less expensive channels, we are seeing significant growth. also, people are buying less from network marketing companies like Reliv which tend to be very expensive as well.
  29. maverick4

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    Interesting. Which channels are less expensive, the specialty stores or the mainstream ones for you?

    The vitamins could be taken as preventative I agree, but I see the rise in alternative medicine spending making sense as America's economy collapses. Alternative medicines (I consider vitamins in this category) are already very popular in other places like in South America, Asia, Middle East, etc... basically spending shifts toward cheaper alternatives in less affluent populations, and we are seeing that now.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009
  30. PatriotsReign

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    We've already established that we don't agree on the ultimate collapse of our economy...you think it will happen & I think it is unlikely...so that's all I'll say about that.

    I'm sure there is some level of shift from pharma products to vitamins, but the data isn't available to measure it. so it's speculation, but very reasonable speculation.

    The grocery, drug and mass merch channels are much less expensive than GNC and Vitamin World (and the like). All of them utilize "buy one, get one free" promotional strategies almost every week on various brands. WalMart is the only retailer who has successfully implemented an everyday low price strategy...which is not surprising since that is their signature.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009

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