How dare pundits say the Chargers lost, when the Pats won

[Kdo5]

Well the Chargers DID make a hell of a lot of mistakes. Going for it on 4th and 11. A horrible dropped INT very early on. The personal foul on Florence. Not running LT when he was gashing us and McRee not batting the ball down. And Marty throwing the challenge flag.

But they have to give credit to our defense. For guys like Hobbs who mayed some good breakups, made a great leap to deflect a TD. Colvin's INT. We got bended to the breaking point but killed a lot of their drives also with safety blitzes. So even though they didnt use LT as much as they should have our defense did make big plays to end drives. Chad Scott's first down saving tackle early on was nice.

And the offense finally moved downfield to make the comeback which was all Patriots.

They did do stuff to lose but we did a heck of a lot of stuff to win. So to discredit the Pats is so stupid. I hate the whole you didnt win, we lost crap. If you lost, we won.

 

[The Predator]

Well the Chargers DID make a hell of a lot of mistakes. Going for it on 4th and 11. A horrible dropped INT very early on. The personal foul on Florence. Not running LT when he was gashing us and McRee not batting the ball down. And Marty throwing the challenge flag.

But they have to give credit to our defense. For guys like Hobbs who mayed some good breakups, made a great leap to deflect a TD. Colvin's INT. We got bended to the breaking point but killed a lot of their drives also with safety blitzes. So even though they didnt use LT as much as they should have our defense did make big plays to end drives. Chad Scott's first down saving tackle early on was nice.

And the offense finally moved downfield to make the comeback which was all Patriots.

They did do stuff to lose but we did a heck of a lot of stuff to win. So to discredit the Pats is so stupid. I hate the whole you didnt win, we lost crap. If you lost, we won.

Yes I agree 100%. Nobody in this thread has discredited anything the Pats did on Sunday, however to take it to the other extreme and say that the Pats dominated the game, were so superior, made no mistakes, did a good job of stopping LT, and the SD passing game was working is completely wacked.

 

[GameDay]

I have to agree. There needs to be a balanced non-homer outlook. Do we deserve credit for making some big plays? Well sure. Did they blow the door open so we could walk through? Ya, big time.

I know this is an old thread and the horse has been beaten to death.

Forced and unforced error analysis can be subjective in sports and that's where disputes often come.

Suppose a long jumper jumps for 21 feet in one try, the next one is 18.
His supporter will say 21 feet is his true capability, the 18-ft is an unforced error and not should not be included in his statistics. His detractor will say 18-ft reflects his true capability, and the 21-ft is just a lucky bounce. They both can argue to their graves...

An alternative view is to just to look at probability, but even so, this can be tricky:

Is Parker's fumble probable for him? it's low prob., he doesn't fumble that often before and hence, Chargers fan can call it a mistake. (Or is it part of his innate capability or liability?)

Is Colvin's INT luck? He has only 2 INTs out of 7 years playing. So, we can call him lucky? Or is it his skill and intelligence in anticipating the play that finally paid off? (He almost picked one against Chad Pennington). What about Vrabel's strip?

So, was it that the Pats defense lucky with those TO's, gifts from the Chargers? or was it that the Chargers were inept and the Pats took advantage? One can be as subjective as one's like.

The strictly empirical view is that you are what you are (or it is what it is). No mistake or luck here. Mistakes are parts of ineptness and lucky bounces are part of skills, regardless how low probability these events are.

The bottom line is that the Pats D did well in that game, against our "perception". The efficiency of defense is to prevent scoring. Giving up long runs did not matter if a drive ended up in a TO or no score.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[The Predator]

I know this is an old thread and the horse has been beaten to death.

Forced and unforced error analysis can be subjective in sports and that's where disputes often come.

Suppose a long jumper jumps for 21 feet in one try, the next one is 18.
His supporter will say 21 feet is his true capability, the 18-ft is an unforced error and not should not be included in his statistics. His detractor will say 18-ft reflects his true capability, and the 21-ft is just a lucky bounce. They both can argue to their graves...

An alternative view is to just to look at probability, but even so, this can be tricky:

Is Parker's fumble probable for him? it's low prob., he doesn't fumble that often before and hence, Chargers fan can call it a mistake. (Or is it part of his innate capability or liability?)

Is Colvin's INT luck? He has only 2 INTs out of 7 years playing. So, we can call him lucky? Or is it his skill and intelligence in anticipating the play that finally paid off? (He almost picked one against Chad Pennington). What about Vrabel's strip?

So, was it that the Pats defense lucky with those TO's, gifts from the Chargers? or was it that the Chargers were inept and the Pats took advantage? One can be as subjective as one's like.

The strictly empirical view is that you are what you are (or it is what it is). No mistake or luck here. Mistakes are parts of ineptness and lucky bounces are part of skills, regardless how low probability these events are.

The bottom line is that the Pats D did well in that game, against our "perception". The efficiency of defense is to prevent scoring. Giving up long runs did not matter if a drive ended up in a TO or no score.

Just my 2 cents.

I have no problem with the points you make. Did the D do well in stopping the Charger's O? Yes, I would agree they did. The field position battle was tough and they worked hard. Did we do a good job on LT? No, no, no. With that said, LT is not the only player on the Charger's offense. The D did a good job shutting down the other 10+ guys who took the field. That is why the D did a good job.

Bottom line we won, but at least be fair in stating how we won instead of being a homer about it (not you).

 

[GameDay]

I have no problem with the points you make. Did the D do well in stopping the Charger's O? Yes, I would agree they did. The field position battle was tough and they worked hard. Did we do a good job on LT? No, no, no. With that said, LT is not the only player on the Charger's offense. The D did a good job shutting down the other 10+ guys who took the field. That is why the D did a good job.

Bottom line we won, but at least be fair in stating how we won instead of being a homer about it (not you).

Neither one of us is homer. Agree with you on horrendous run defense. I could not even bear to watch at the time. But after the dust settles, when factoring in everything,* it turns out not too bad. The Pats D was better than expected in preventing SD scoring. (21 points were < than expected 26)
---------------------------------------
*
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=48839

 

[Patters]

Is it a coincidence that when teams play against good defenses, they make more mistakes? Of course not. The Chargers made mistakes because our D put pressure on them. The Pats made mistakes for the same reason. To some degree football is a game of nerves. The Pats certainly showed that in SBXXXVI when we intimidated the Rams to the extent that their receivers could not help but look around before making a reception, since they knew they would be hit hard. I think the mistakes made in this game was the result of effective defense. The benefits of a tough, solid defense is that the other team plays more self-consciously and is apt to make mistakes. No one said the Pats dominated the Chargers and made no mistakes, but the Pats victory came as result of their talent, their discipline, their game planning, and their preparation. Too many pundits (and even some Pats fans) seem to think the Pats were lucky. I think luck is a byproduct of opportunity, which one creates through effective D and O.

 

[The Predator]

Is it a coincidence that when teams play against good defenses, they make more mistakes? Of course not. The Chargers made mistakes because our D put pressure on them.

What D pressure caused Marty to go on it on 4-11?

What D pressure caused Eric Parker to fumble?

What D pressure caused Marty to throw the challenge flag?

What D pressure caused the headbutt?

What D pressure caused the Troy fumble?

. Too many pundits (and even some Pats fans) seem to think the Pats were lucky. I think luck is a byproduct of opportunity, which one creates through effective D and O.

The Pats did get lucky that the Chargers played sloppy football. How can you not call the Troy strip a pretty darn lucky play? Skill was certainly involved, but give me a break homer. Please.

Your definition of luck has no leg to stand on based upon the game played last Sunday. We did not cause many of the Charger's mistakes. The main one we did create was through pressure was Colvin's INT.

 

[LT=MVP]

Funny, I saw it completely differently, as did the crew in the booth once they saw the replay. It was clearly an offensive penalty.




There's also a tendency for folks to not see what really happened. In this game, despite having the ball on the New England side of the field for much of the first half, the Chargers were unable to pull away. The reason? New England's defense. The difference in the game, as is almost always the case when the Patriots play other top end teams, was the ability of the Patriots to keep applying pressure to their opponent until the opponent wilts. You err because you seem to wish to eliminate this factor from the equation, and you forget that this is precisely how New England wins playoff games. Just ask the Rams, the Colts (Hey, who's that McGinest guy?), the Panthers, the Raiders, etc.... As you point out, the "other team" gets paid, too. Unfortunately, for you, the "other team" that's being forgotten about in your post is the team that actually won the game.

In the very same sentence, you claim the Chargers "played a hell of a game", AND they had "several just unbelievable atrocities". How can both be true? If they had "several" huge errors, how can that equate to playing a "hell of a game", particularly when their quarterback, and passing game, was mediocre at best? In your zeal to disqualify the Patriots role in the outcome of the game, you throw your own post under the bus with that sentence. And, again, you simply ignore the impact that the Patriots pressure had on the opponent. The simple reality is that Scifres was able to pin New England inside the 20 on 5 out of 7 punts and, in a field position game, that made things seem a lot more lopsided than they were. As I've said before, if San Diego had won the game, Scifres would have been the MVP.

If it makes you feel better, though, I'll agree that the Chargers' special teams did a hell of a job covering punts. I'm not claiming that Chargers' mistakes had nothing to do with the outcome of the game or that New England dominated the game in any fashion. I'm simply noting that a) the famous "atrocities" were caused, at least in part, by good Patriots plays and pressure, and b) handling pressure is a part of the game that New England forces opponents to struggle with by always grinding it out.

You're trying to call that an illegal pick play 20 yards down the field? WoW you sir need to do a little research on pick plays.

 

[Patters]

What D pressure caused Eric Parker to fumble?

In today's Globe, Sauerbraun said that he saw that the way he kicked the ball it was going to be difficult to catch. (He said the ball was spinning in a very odd way.) It was difficult to catch, and Spann, through a good move, made it even more difficult.

What D pressure caused Marty to throw the challenge flag?

That was a mistake by Marty.

What D pressure caused the headbutt?

Obviously, our D was frustrating enough that it provoked a dumb mistake, just as the Chargers provoked Mankins into a couple unnecessary mistakes.

What D pressure caused the Troy fumble?

The very definition of D is the fumble that Troy forced. The pressure was that applied by Troy's hand to the ball.

The Pats did get lucky that the Chargers played sloppy football. How can you not call the Troy strip a pretty darn lucky play? Skill was certainly involved, but give me a break homer. Please.

That kind of luck is part of the nature of football. Brady would not have been intercepted if it wasn't for that kind of "luck." To have that kind of luck you have to have talented players, like Troy, making clutch plays. I suppose Tomlinson was lucky that no one was in his way on his TD runs. I suppose Faulk was lucky on his TD run that the Chargers didn't figure out the play in time.

Your definition of luck has no leg to stand on based upon the game played last Sunday. We did not cause many of the Charger's mistakes. The main one we did create was through pressure was Colvin's INT.

We caused most of their mistakes and they caused most of ours. BB has a way of making our opponents very uncomfortable. That's how the Pats have been winning for years. We put them in a position to make mistakes and BB more than most other coaches has our players in a position to capitalize on those mistakes.

 

[frankiesfly]

Why can't you just be reasonable? Everything does not need to be so extreme. It has nothing to do with psychic ability, but common sense.

I did not say we would have lost if STD ran the ball more. You decided to put those words into my mouth. However, it is not a bad theory. It is a theory though. Some would theorize differently. We have no idea what would have happened and we do not need to know.

Fact says we needed two scores to win on 4th and 10 with 6 minutes left. Common sense says (and majority of the media) that Troy Brown saved our season with that play. No reason to be a homer and go off any further.

Why is that so difficult?

The facts are that NE capitolized on big SD mistakes. If you cannot admit that you are a blindsided homer who isnt worth talking to.

Bottom line is we won. Go argue with that.

When 2 good teams play eachother, the winner of the game is going to be the team that capitalizes off the others mistakes. We made mistakes and the Chargers didnt capatalize on them. So we deserved to win.

 

[SVN]

http://www.allthingsbillbelichick.com/articles/2007/flawesome.htm

Before getting smoochy with his parents, sisters and nieces, Brady smiled as he saw his best friend since childhood, Kevin Brady – no relation, though you wouldn't know it from watching them interact – and waved him through a gap in the fence. "You had no business winning that game," Kevin said as they hugged, his voice hoarse from cheering. "No business!"

"I know," Tom answered. "I know."

"Troy saved our season," Brady said. "Without that play, we're flying home losers tonight."

my 2 cents...all the credit to pats but opponents mistakes helped us like they do in most victories and probably more so here..i dont know why its so difficult to accept it .
if we were such a superior team we shouldnt get shutout in miami or lose to indy here or lost to the jets here the first time...why didnt our experience and skill and ability to make opponenents make mistakes work then .?
we played better than the chargers and 'better' could also mean chargers were dumber. thats the way i see it

 

[LT=MVP]

Is it a coincidence that when teams play against good defenses, they make more mistakes? Of course not. The Chargers made mistakes because our D put pressure on them. The Pats made mistakes for the same reason. To some degree football is a game of nerves. The Pats certainly showed that in SBXXXVI when we intimidated the Rams to the extent that their receivers could not help but look around before making a reception, since they knew they would be hit hard. I think the mistakes made in this game was the result of effective defense. The benefits of a tough, solid defense is that the other team plays more self-consciously and is apt to make mistakes. No one said the Pats dominated the Chargers and made no mistakes, but the Pats victory came as result of their talent, their discipline, their game planning, and their preparation. Too many pundits (and even some Pats fans) seem to think the Pats were lucky. I think luck is a byproduct of opportunity, which one creates through effective D and O.

Patters here's where you're completely wrong. Watching every single game this year, without question this was the worst team effort of the year BY FAR. Parker usually sure handed catching passes and punts. He's the reason why Caldwell was let go. 3 Dropped passes and a crucial muffed punt then worse the bone headed decision to try and pick it up rather than just jump on it. N.E. did their job by staying close and not letting it get out of hand. S.D. didn't do their job. They didn't make the easy plays. Gates... That incompletion at the 1 yards line was completely out of character. VJ missing the TD by an inch. And so on and so on.

The seasoned team won the game. I believe experience was a huge factor in that. Inexperience was a huge factor why the Chargers lost. It's easy to see just by the amount bone headed playes that they hadn't done ALL year. The personal fouls, the easy drops, and something as simple as just batting a ball down on 4th down. I couldn't have imagined a worse way to lose. It was hard to watch, and hard loss to take. I would have taken the loss much better had it been by the play of a "superior team". That wasn't the case one bit. IMO the Chargers were the superior team but the Patriots were the more disciplined experienced team. They got the hard earned win. Congrats. A win in win no matter how anyone spins it.

I hope the Chargers learned from this very painful lesson. We'll be back next year basically everyone is under contract.

Good luck the rest of the way.

 

[The Predator]

What D pressure caused Eric Parker to fumble?

In today's Globe, Sauerbraun said that he saw that the way he kicked the ball it was going to be difficult to catch. (He said the ball was spinning in a very odd way.) It was difficult to catch, and Spann, through a good move, made it even more difficult.

What D pressure caused Marty to throw the challenge flag?

That was a mistake by Marty.

What D pressure caused the headbutt?

Obviously, our D was frustrating enough that it provoked a dumb mistake, just as the Chargers provoked Mankins into a couple unnecessary mistakes.

What D pressure caused the Troy fumble?

The very definition of D is the fumble that Troy forced. The pressure was that applied by Troy's hand to the ball.

The Pats did get lucky that the Chargers played sloppy football. How can you not call the Troy strip a pretty darn lucky play? Skill was certainly involved, but give me a break homer. Please.

That kind of luck is part of the nature of football. Brady would not have been intercepted if it wasn't for that kind of "luck." To have that kind of luck you have to have talented players, like Troy, making clutch plays. I suppose Tomlinson was lucky that no one was in his way on his TD runs. I suppose Faulk was lucky on his TD run that the Chargers didn't figure out the play in time.

Your definition of luck has no leg to stand on based upon the game played last Sunday. We did not cause many of the Charger's mistakes. The main one we did create was through pressure was Colvin's INT.

We caused most of their mistakes and they caused most of ours. BB has a way of making our opponents very uncomfortable. That's how the Pats have been winning for years. We put them in a position to make mistakes and BB more than most other coaches has our players in a position to capitalize on those mistakes.

Great job in redefining Defensive Pressure in a way that you did not use it at all. You not worth addressing. You make crap up as you go along and totally change what you mean to mean the opposite. You are not even close to reality. Next you are going to claim that air caused all the chargers mistakes because they live in a different climate, but not really because that would be atomic pressure.

NEWS FLASH: BB HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH A HEADBUTT, MISSED FEILD GOAL, A STUPID CHALLENGE, OR ANY OTHER BAD PLAYS BY THE CHARGERS.

Do you really understand what you sound like? You are starting to make Homer look smart.

 

[The Predator]

When 2 good teams play eachother, the winner of the game is going to be the team that capitalizes off the others mistakes. We made mistakes and the Chargers didnt capatalize on them. So we deserved to win.

Ya I agree 100%.

 

[Deus Irae]

You're trying to call that an illegal pick play 20 yards down the field? WoW you sir need to do a little research on pick plays.

No, sir, I do not. Receivers are not allowed to knock DBs on their ass 20 yards downfield when players are running patterns and no pass completion or run has been made. It's an offensive penalty. Again, the men in the booth agreed with me, not you.

 

[Patters]

http://www.allthingsbillbelichick.com/articles/2007/flawesome.htm



my 2 cents...all the credit to pats but opponents mistakes helped us like they do in most victories and probably more so here..i dont know why its so difficult to accept it .
if we were such a superior team we shouldnt get shutout in miami or lose to indy here or lost to the jets here the first time...why didnt our experience and skill and ability to make opponenents make mistakes work then .?
we played better than the chargers and 'better' could also mean chargers were dumber. thats the way i see it

No one's saying we're so superior, but the measure of a team is how well it does over the course of an entire season and the playoffs. And I agree with you that "better" could mean the Chargers were dumber. I think BB puts a lot more emphasis on intelligence than many QBs. I think the Pats are almost unbeatable if they're completely focused. Granted, a bad game plan, injuries, and random events can cause unexpected results, but in general I think that if the Pats play their best and our opponents play their best, the Pats have the advantage. Look at all the clutch plays against San Diego -- by Faulk, Brown, Spann, Caldwell, Colvin, etc. It's more than luck, I think.

 

[The Predator]

I would have taken the loss much better had it been by the play of a "superior team". That wasn't the case one bit. IMO the Chargers were the superior team but the Patriots were the more disciplined experienced team. They got the hard earned win. Congrats. A win in win no matter how anyone spins it.

I hope the Chargers learned from this very painful lesson. We'll be back next year basically everyone is under contract.

Good luck the rest of the way.

Great post. I would change the last part I quoted with semantics. The Chargers have a better roster on paper, but we are the better "team" in the raw definition of the word.

 

[The Predator]

No one's saying we're so superior, but the measure of a team is how well it does over the course of an entire season and the playoffs.

Patters what the heck are you talking about? Do you not even know what you posted????????? Look at your quote from the first page.

The Pats beat the Chargers because the Pats were the superior team.

Could you please stop changing your story and grasping at straws? How many times are you going to contradict yourself and change your story?

 

[Patters]

Great job in redefining Defensive Pressure in a way that you did not use it at all. You not worth addressing. You make crap up as you go along and totally change what you mean to mean the opposite. You are not even close to reality. Next you are going to claim that air caused all the chargers mistakes because they live in a different climate, but not really because that would be atomic pressure.

NEWS FLASH: BB HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH A HEADBUTT, MISSED FEILD GOAL, A STUPID CHALLENGE, OR ANY OTHER BAD PLAYS BY THE CHARGERS.

Do you really understand what you sound like? You are starting to make Homer look smart.

Forget it, Predator, I regret giving you another chance. You're rude. Using your logic, I bet you think that the Rams should have won SBXXXVI. If only they had run Marshall Faulk more. I don't think you understand BB's approach to the game. It's more cerebral than that of many coaches. Try reading Patriots Reign for starters. And anyone who uses cartoon characters as a means of insulting someone's intelligence comes across as a fool, IMHO. I won't be responding to you again.

P.S., I said the Pats were superior, but did not use superlatives. I did not say they were "so" superior or dominating.

 

[LT=MVP]

Patters what the heck are you talking about? Do you not even know what you posted????????? Look at your quote from the first page.



Could you please stop changing your story and grasping at straws? How many times are you going to contradict yourself and change your story?

ROFL!