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How big is a tight end to an offense? - Just look at this Sunday's games

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by PATRIOTSFANINPA, Jan 15, 2010.

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  1. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    There are 8 teams playing this weekend - 3 of those teams have thier #1 TE as best in the league and all voted to the pro bowl and going to the second round of the playoffs.

    Witten,Gates and Clark are all pro bowlers who played a big role in getting thier respective teams to the 2nd round and a couple of others like Keller,Heap and Shockey are pretty good too.

    It proves that this season was definately a big season for the Tight Ends who made a difference for thier team success.

    I hope Belichick looks at it this way and picks up a solid TE in the draft or in FA (if there are any good ones in FA) - Missing a great alternative besides the WRs in the passing game does hurt but few really look at that,most look at the #3 WR and down.

    I think either Watson or Baker should be expecting some serious challenge this year,I think TE is going to be a 1st day surprise pick from BB especially a second rounder if FA has nothing to offer.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2010
  2. TriplecHamp

    TriplecHamp Rookie

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    Jermaine gresham!!!:D:D
  3. The Hurricane

    The Hurricane Rookie

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    Of the 8 teams playing this weekend - 3 of those teams have at least two players with the last name Williams on their roster.

    This proves that having multiple people with the last name Williams on your roster makes a difference in your team's success.

    You are confusing correlation with causation. While having an awesome tight end would be nice, I can think of other upgrades that would have a much greater impact.
  4. BennyBledsoe

    BennyBledsoe Rookie

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    I mostly agree with this sentiment.

    A good tight end is a security blanket for a quarterback. It doesn't JUST cover up a weakness at wide receiver.

    As good and tough as Welker is, he can't be the big in the middle pass catcher a tight end can be.

    A good tight end can more easily get those third and fives by running and turning around and using their size to shield the defender away from the ball. This sustains drives.

    One of the things I think people confuse here are fantastic fantasy numbers with winning offensive football. You can put up a bunch of yards and points but if you do it so quick that you give the other team the ball quicker and put your defense on the field more, it's harder to get the edge in time of possession.

    I rambled.

    Thank you.
  5. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not to mention that this thread is redundant to Belichick's history with him already having drafted two TE in the first round plus more in the mid rounds. Suggesting Belichick needs to notice this to decide to value TE is a little silly.
  6. Nonentity

    Nonentity Rookie

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    What you need is a 3rd receiving option to exploit single coverage. A tight end is great because of their size, but slot receivers can do the same job.

    Arizona don't especially suffer from their lack of a tight end, for example. Fitzgerald/Boldon/Breaston do the job just fine, as did Moss/Stallworth/Welker.
  7. satz

    satz Rookie

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    I am confused why you do not like Wes Welker and his production. He runs and operates in the receiving TE areas in the middle .He does every thing better than any TE i have ever seen.

    Why would you want Wes benched for a receiving TE option ?.
  8. patriotscpfc

    patriotscpfc Rookie

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    I don't really count Clark as a TE.

    The next time he stays into block will be the first time of the season.

    And you missed out Shiancoe. Top 10 of TDs scored this year if I remember right.
  9. TheComeback

    TheComeback Rookie

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    No one suggested benching Welker for TE. Wes can't block light a TE and having another reliable short/intermediate threat just opens things up for Welker even more.
  10. chevss454

    chevss454 Rookie

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    Gresham is a beast with soft hands and speed, no question about that.
    I just wonder what the Pats need more? RG, OLB/DE, RB, ILB, WR...maybe C. So many needs, so few UFA's. Glad I dont have BB's job THIS year.

    "You can have anything you want, but you cant have everything you want."
  11. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    New England won 3 Super Bowls with Graham/Watson/Rutledge/Wiggins/Fauria as the tight ends. While it would be nice to find a tight end that blocks like Graham and works the passing game like a Ben Coates, it clearly hasn't been essential to the Patriots thus far.
  12. PATSYLICIOUS

    PATSYLICIOUS Rookie

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    When did the dynasty ever have an elite TE? Our offense needs to focus on a deeper set of WR's and fixing the interior of the line.

    People are talking about TE, RB. We won super bowls with Antowain Smith and Daniel Graham. Corey Dillon was a luxury, we got him in an offseason where we had an extra 1st/2nd rounder and barely any needs. This year we have several needs ahead of RB and TE.
  13. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    Thats actually the biggest problem..We only have Welker as a true threat in the middle of the field - the more savvy options we have the more productive an offense is and the more you move the chains - We all realize that Watson will never produce the talent that he shows on paper.

    Welker as the only option in the short passing game has this team totally predictable and besides that Wes is getting hit way too many times,time to get him some help.

    I think Wes is fine on the outside too by the way

    Teams are not stupid,They KNOW once Brady drops back to pass, he is looking immediately at ONLY 2 guys most of the time - we need some threats to add-on or this offense will suck and be predictable for a long time.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2010
  14. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    IMO Going after a player who is still great like Gonzalez who was available,could actually have made a HUGE difference in this teams offensive personality this year.....I could venture to say it might have even helped us win another game or two this year.
  15. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    Shiancoe was great as well but he didn't make the pro bowl..my assessment of this is due to the fact that of the 4 teams playing this weekend,3 of hem have pro bowl voted TEs - that has never happened before - Only Vernon Davis is sitting home watching the playoffs of all the pro bowl TEs
  16. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    We won those Super Bowls with a good offense like the guys you mentioned BUT we won the SB because we had a very solid defense to back the offense up...now that our defense is in a bit of dissaray, the focus is to make the offense rock solid which could keep the deficiences of the D covered up a little.

    Does anyone really think the defense of the 18-1 2007 team were great?..The defense was really not that good,it was just covered up by our offense putting up 40 points a week on the scoreboard.
  17. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There was still a salary cap this season. New England doesn't involve the tight end to the extent that dropping elite cash on a 32 year old tight end while also giving away a 2nd round pick for him would make a lot of sense. This is particularly true when that tight end is a diva like Gonzalez.

    I agree with the notion that the overarching issue with the Patriots passing attack is the lack of diversity of weapons. How much of that is personnel, how much is coaching and how much is injuries are the questions that must be asked and answered in the offseason. I think it's safe to say that keeping Watson and getting a legitimate WR3 would be of more help than keeping Aiken as WR3 and getting a top receiving tight end, because of the Patriots reliance on the tight end as a blocker.
  18. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    I would like to see a fullback on this team to take care of blocking assignments more than TEs who should be out there giving Brady more options and get more weapons in the passing game with a solid catching TE,Fauria was not a HOer but he was very good at what he did in both blocking and catching ...Possibly looking for a good TE in FA if the draft is weak in that position is my hope at this point.
  19. TriplecHamp

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    Watch Dallas Clark, Antonio Gates, Tony Gonzales, and Jason Witten, they are all just as big of weapons as most of the receivers in the league today.
  20. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I've posted on this elsewhere, but it fits here as well. This team decided to get rid of the fullback and just use linemen in the role. That eliminates the pass to the fullback and puts a slower, less agile player in the role of lead blocker. That's all well and good on 4th and 1, and on short distance goal line plays, but it's not going to do much good on 1st and 10.

    Belichick's been cutting edge on a lot of things during his time, and there's no questioning the brilliance of some of his moves. Eliminating the fullback was not one of his finest moments, though.

    BTW, Bo Scaife might be a tight end that interests the Patriots if Watson is heading out the door. He'll be a RFA if there's no CBA, but it's reported that the Titans might let him go because they've got another player behind him.
  21. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yes, those playing today have receiving threats today who are TE's. Welker was our option over the middle. Wasn't that good enough? The patriots chose to focus on a slot receiver instead of a TE and had one of the best passing games in the league. The patriots had four problems in their passing game, and none involved any lack of talent at TE.

    PROBLEMS
    lack of talented second speed wideout opposite Moss
    brady's health
    an injured OL
    poor play calling in the second half

    And with this, we still had one of the best passing games in the nfl
  22. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    The Pats Passing game in 09 may look great on the stat sheet but we were not actually lighting up the scoreboard every game,when it came down to TDs they got hard to get as the season progressed and we faced good teams.
  23. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    As I sais at the time (asn now), I care much more about winning against the division than in the game against NO and INDY.

    However, I do find it useful to consider what we needed in the playoffs, and a TE instead of Welker wasn't it.

  24. TriplecHamp

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    I remember two division games where we got SHUT DOWN in the second half. Why all this talk of a TE instead of Welker and not a TE with Welker? Lets get real here, in games where Moss was a non factor, on third down who did teams look to cover? WELKER. A TE is just as valuable if not more valuable than a third option at wideout. Teams cannot cover a legit TE and Welker as well as double Moss.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2010
  25. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We had TWO legitimate TE threats. Both had key TD catches during the season. Our problem was that we needed 6 or 7 OL's to defend Brady, so the TE's were forever assigned as blockers.

    Last edited: Jan 16, 2010
  26. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Do people here not realize that New England had a receiving tight end in Ben Watson, but chose not to use him in that manner?

    5 O-linemen
    1 QB

    That's 6 spots off the board, leaving 5.

    WR1
    WR2

    That's your two outside receivers, leaving three spots left.

    Now, you've got options here. New England has gone with a WR3 in Welker, leaving 2 spots left.

    Unless you're emptying out your backfield on every play, you're going to want a running back. That leaves 1 spot.

    So, the question then really breaks down to a choice:

    WR4
    TE
    FB

    All of them would serve a function, but they'd be different functions. No matter how you slice it, though, you're looking at the final option for the QB reads in the New England offense as long as Faulk and Welker are around.
  27. TriplecHamp

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    Chris Baker and Ben Watson are now legitimate threats? Good Solid Tight ends? Yes. Legitimate threats? No. Antonio Gates is a legitimate threat, Dallas Clark is a legitimate threat, Jason Witten? Brent Celek? Tony Gonzales? Are all legitimate threats and the stats, and their play on the field show it.
  28. TriplecHamp

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    Maybe in a Bill O'Brien Offense with Ben Watson at TE but if we had a Jason Witten type TE he could be as viable of an option as Welker.
  29. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Ok. tHE ONLY legitimate threats are probowlers and we need at 25 probowlers in order to win.

  30. Deus Irae

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    1.) There's not a tight end in the NFL that's as good an option as Welker.

    2.) There has never been a tight end in the NFL that was as good an option as Welker.

    The tight end advantage comes into play with blocking, not receiving.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2010
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