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How about them DE prospects?

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by patchick, Mar 26, 2009.

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  1. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Hey, anybody know who looks good at OLB this year? :D

    Let's take a little break. We haven't had a DE discussion since the combine, and the likes of Tyson Jackson and Jarron Gilbert are beginning their inevitable climb up the mocks as the draft approaches.

    One tidbit I just noticed on Gilbert is that he has incredible 36' 3/4" arms, which on a 6'5+ frame would make for quite a presence in the passing lanes. (It also makes his 28 bench reps look pretty darned good.) His athleticism, explosion and knack for getting into the backfield are well documented. Meanwhile, a few different draft sites make vague references to "maturity" issues, without any specifics whatsoever. Anybody have a clue what that's about? He was a team captain, fwiw.
     
  2. bakes781

    bakes781 In the Starting Line-Up

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    #12 Jersey

    How about Fili Moala? 6-4, 303 Played DT for USC. He must have been doing something right to make all those USC LBs look good! Excels at stopping the run.
     
  3. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Fili Moala is another one who could have the size and mobility to be a DE for us. I actually think there's a better chance we take someone like this than the more popular OLB at #23.
     
  4. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Damn you :)
     
  5. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Come on, let's just keep discussing Beatty and Barwin.

    First of all, I just don't see the same pressing need at DE as some people do. We have Seymour, Warren, Wright, Green and LeKevin Smith, same as last year. Not a lot of playing time for a rookie to contribute. I understand that Seymour, Green and Smith are in their contract years. But I think we should be able to extend Wilfork leaving us free to franchise Seymour if necessary for 2010, assuming we can't extend him, and draft a replacement next year when there is a much stronger 3-4 DE class.

    If we were totally in love with a 3-4 DE prospect then I could understand the logic of drafting one early. Believe me, if Ndamukong Suh from Nebraska had declared then I would be all for taking him at #23, as I believe he would be an incredible 3-4 DE for us. But what we are left with is the following:

    - Tyson Jackson - 6'4"+, 295", experienced 3-4 DE starter for LSU. Inconsistent and sometimes lazy. I doubt he will last to 23, but I really don't like him all that much.
    - Jarron Gilbert - a physical freak, but one whose productivity hasn't matched up. To me, he's a much bigger reach at 23-34 than Connor Barwin would be (sorry, obligatory Barwin inclusion; now back to the post). He's a 3rd round pick whose physical traits should push him into the 2nd round, who is being given 1st round consideration because of the lack of other prospects and because he can jump out of a swimming pool. I want him on my water polo team, but not necessarily at 3-4 DE. Certainly not earlier than #47.
    - A bunch of 4-3 UT's who could conceivable play 3-4 DE but aren't really suited to it: Peria Jerry, Evander Hood, etc.

    The 2010 draft will have a much more talented crop of potential 3-4 DEs: Gerald McCoy (top 10), Marvin Austin (probably top 20), Ndamukong Suh (probably top 20), Arthur Davis (1-2), Vince Oghobasse (1-2), among others. One or more could slip given all of the wealth, or at least be within trade-up range. Suh is my clear favorite at this point - probably out of reach, though things may change. Davis and Oghobasse are excellent options who are likely quite possible for us on the first day.

    If the FO thinks Gilbert can be a pro-bowl 3-4 DE then I'm all for him at 47 or 58. But he seems pretty much like an unproven physical specimen. His play has been inconsistent, and hasn't lived up to his athletic ability. He seems much more like a workout warrior to me than B**w*n (oops, I almost did it again).
     
  6. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Forgot to include Moala in my list. He's another who has tons of physical ability and hasn't played up to it. I would be fine with him if he fell to the 3rd round. Possibly at 58 if the FO really liked him. But he's very inconsistent.
     
  7. bakes781

    bakes781 In the Starting Line-Up

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    #12 Jersey

    Hey great minds ;) Another tidbit: he's the cousin of Haloti Ngata.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2009
  8. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Does Arthur Davis = Arthur Jones? If not, add Arthur Jones to your list also.

    The love Gilbert gets on this board puzzles me as much as Ayers. I wouldn't touch him day one...or early on day two, for that matter.
     
  9. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    1) I don't expect Green to be extended AND Seymour to be extended AND Smith to be re-signed at $1.6M or so (as would be required to keep him). So my conclusion is that we will need one or two defensive ends for the 2010 season.

    2) Front seven players in our 2-gap 3-4 defense sometimes need time to develop, especially players who aren't stud game-ready top 10 picks.

    3) We can wait, but it is possible to draft at DE in both 2009 and 2010 if necessary. If we choose to let Green walk and Seymour is an issue (he might sit out in camp as a franchisee), then we will need a DE starter for 2010 with draft picks that start at 32, and that would mean starting a rookie.

    4) Also, we might have other needs for the franchise tag than Seymour, especially if we have a new CBA (e.g., Gostkowksi).

    BOTTOM LINE
    If we can, let's draft the replacement for Green or Seymour now, expecting to keep one in 2010. And just BTW, if he is good enough, and belichick thinks enough of Smith, Green could be in trouble this year. We could be keeping two of the draftee, Green and Smith.
     
  10. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If we draft a rookie 3-4 DE in 2010 then we don't need Seymour, Green and Smith to all be extended (or possibly franchised, for Seymour), just 2 out of 3 to go along with Warren and Wright. I'd rather see us draft a true NT backup for Wilfork than reach for a DE when I don't see any really terrific prospects.

    In other words:

    - Keep Seymour, Warren, Green and Wright for 2009, with Smith also able to play some DE. Draft a rookie NT to backup Wilfork.
    - 2010: Franchise or resign Seymour and if feasible resign one of Green/Smith, along with a day 1 rookie DE. Seymour, Warren, Wright, and rookie would be fine. Add in one of Green/Smith and we would be in great shape for 2010, with a day 1 rookie possibly being able to move into a starting role in 2011 if we couldn't resign Seymour long term.

    Again, I would be fine going DE if there was a standout prospect, but I just can't get worked up about any of these guys, except for Gilbert who is all promise.
     
  11. BradyManny

    BradyManny Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    I have scribbled somewhere some notes on a couple late round NTs noted as potential 3-4 DEs. I can't recall them OTOH to be honest, but that's about it for 3-4 DEs in this draft that are good Pats fits. I like Tyson Jackson alright, but I trust this board when it comes to scouting, and take note of the lack of enthusiasm here for him.

    I agree - let's get a two-down run stuffer NT backup behind Wilfork, (Sammie Lee Hill or Ron Brace depending upon the round) and worry about DE in 2010 when the class is much stronger for it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2009
  12. BradyManny

    BradyManny Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Maybe I'd agree if the draft were deeper at the position.

    Even still, I think the Patriots do not draft planning ahead in this type of situation. They didn't draft replacements for Asante, Willie Mac, Colvin, Givens/Branch a year ahead. Spending a Day 1 pick on a player that might be rendered redundant if a more experienced veteran is re-signed is not something the Pats do.
     
  13. captain stone

    captain stone Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    No Jersey Selected

    Can any of these guys play OLB?
     
  14. ayjackson

    ayjackson Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    I think at #34 or 47, you either trade the pick forward for a number 1 next year or you take a DE - Gilbert, Hood, Fioli. Either way you're addressing the 2010 potential need. Trading into next year's first round gives you added leverage to get a guy that can come in and start as a rookie, if Seymour departs.
     
  15. bakes781

    bakes781 In the Starting Line-Up

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    #12 Jersey

    That's easier said than done IMO. Who did you have in mind?

    Again I think DE's that fit our system are plentiful compared to finding "the NT backup to Wilfork". Ron Brace is the only day one prospect that comes to mind.
     
  16. Metaphors

    Metaphors In the Starting Line-Up

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    I think that Marquise Hill was drafted at least in part because of the Seymour contract situation. I know Seymour's contract wasn't up until 2006, but drafting Hill in the 2nd round very likely was a hedge against the Seymour negotiations going south.

    I also think that replacing Green and Seymour are two entirely different situations. Seymour's replacement would almost certainly be a DT in college and be comfortable playing at 300+ lbs. Moala would be a consideration and I like Dorell Scott as a later (3rd-4th) selection.

    You could replace Green with a lighter DT or even a larger DE. Includes players like Gilbert and I like Kyle Moore as a later (4th) pick. Doesn't mean they are pass rush specialists. Just means that the DE's for the Pats are expected to eat up blockers (hopefully multiple on any given play). Traditional college tackles are better suited for doing that without breaking down.

    With the number of picks available to the Pats, I wouldn't be surprised to see potential replacements for both Green and Seymour taken in this draft...though I think the talent in this draft class would be more "potential" than finished product.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2009
  17. BradyManny

    BradyManny Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Brace & Sammie Lee Hill, and like DE, there are some late round NT that were of interest when reading various reports, but the names are alluding me at this point. Even a guy who has fallen off the planet like Terrance Taylor has a shot as a reserve run plugger.

    IMO, either Brace or Hill seems like better value than any DE prospect I can think of. Finding a backup run plugger in the 3-4 might not be an easy task, but in this specific draft, it looks easier than finding a 5-technique DE to replace Seymour.
     
  18. BradyManny

    BradyManny Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    But when I hear potential replacement for Seymour, I think it has to be a Round 1 player. It has to be a DE with elite potential, and the only guy who would fit the 3-4 and fit that mold is Jackson, and the reviews are mixed on him. 2010 will have some of those guys, it seems.

    But I'll buy that we could add depth behind Seymour, and a less pricey insurance policy - the Marquise Hill comparison seems on point.
     
  19. BPF

    BPF In the Starting Line-Up

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    Why would the Pats trade #34 into next year in a deep draft? #34 is like a late 1st Rd pick at about $1 mil per season. I could see them doing that with either 47 or 58 and much more likely a later pick in Rds 4-6. My thinking is that the Pats will use their plethora of picks this year to move up and down the draft board to get their targeted players.
     
  20. ayjackson

    ayjackson Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    I don't know if he has to be Seymour quality. With Warren and Wilfork on the line, and an improving LB corps (especially if we can get a downhill thumper silb), having a Spears quality DE would probably work well. Someone solid at the point of attack, a run-defender first.
     
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