How about some logical reasoning for a change

[midwestpatsfan]

Okay, I have read all the posts about how we squandered this draft and how horrible BB is. Well, now it is time for some good ole fashioned logic for this draft so far. I will get to the picks in a second, but lets get a few things out of the way first.

1. This whole draft class may be squandered no matter who was picked and where. With the CBA still in limbo, these players may not even see a playbook until August. Training camp is going to be shortened as well as pre-season games. Every year we talk about how hard it is for ANY player to make the transition to the NFL when things are under normal conditions, now we will be asking all these players to make impacts on a 14-2 team from last year under extreme circumstances. Bringing in conversion projects to be OLB only makes the process harder and there is no way the Patriots could count on guys that had to make such a drastic schematic change in such a limited amount of coaching time. A year from now, all the people clamoring for these conversion guys would be on this very same message board claiming they are busts. RB, OLine, and CB seem to be positions that can come in and play without having a big learning curve, so making picks at those positions could help these guys get on the field faster.

Now, lets look at the picks:
1. Nate Solder-I cannot believe this was not on everyone's radar. Basically he is Sebatian Vollmers twin with more football experience. You just do not find guys with those physical tools that can move like they do. Is he perfect? No, but he has what cannot be taught and what he needs to improve on is easily fixed.

2. Ras-I-Dowling- Its not an OLB and that makes people mad, but I refer back to my original statement. Dowling again has size and speed you just can't teach. He was hurt, yes, but it was one year. All of these people who say he is always hurt have not done their homework. He played 35 of 36 games before his senior year. He got hurt, tried to come back to early, and re-injured himself. Team captain, really smart. Bodden is coming of an injury and anyone who feels comfortable with Arrington as a key player in that secondary is kidding themselves. The only negative to this pick is that Butler has not developed like we had thought. But wait....everyone loved that pick that year and wanted him in the 1st and all the draft pro's on this board so happy we took him, now they are the same ones calling him a bust.

3. Shane Vereen and Stevan Ridley- I think these 2 picks mark a fundamental change to the offense. In that playoff loss we saw the Jets dare the Patriots to run the ball and the Patriots were ineffective doing it against a 3 man front. BJGE and Woodhead are the only 2 RB's on the roster, and BB always carries 4, so 2 were needed. Vereen is more than just a 3rd down back, I think anyone saying that has not watched film on him. He is a lot like Jahvid Best, not as explosive but with much better hands and pass protection skills. I will admit that Ridley went higher than I expected, but when you consider that BB had been working on the trade with Oakland for many hours, he probably had to reach for a guy the patriots TARGETED. Is that not what we want the patriots to do? Take guys they target not just let players fall. Also, anyone who says we would have been there in such and such a round is crazy, we have no idea how teams boards stack up. Just because Kiper and McShay say its a reach don't mean anything.

4. Ryan Mallett- For months now, we heard about how this is a QB league and you have to get your QB or you cannot win. The Mallett pick is classic BB. We watched and laughed as we saw 4 QB's go in the top 12 and I cannot find a single person who believes these QB's were worth that pick. The Patriots, in a draft that looks weak right now, gets a top 15 talent quarterback. He is the most physically gifted of all the QB's in the draft class and is said to be a film junkie and a football rat. Just what you want. There are off the field issues, but if you could have Ben Rothlisberger for a 3rd round pick, you would probably do that. If he develops he has top 10 QB talent and that gives BB flexiblity. It is picks like this that have given the Patriots the additional draft picks in early rounds that have allowed the patriots to stay competitive.

Some other thoughts:
It is hard to win the Super Bowl people. I know we got spoiled for a while there, but the reason football is so great is that it is very competitive and very difficult to remain on top. The patriots have been so consistent and have at least put a team on the field that has a chance to win even if they do not every year.
Someone last night wrote that the Patriots are drafting to get younger on an older offense and will use free agency to bring in experience to a younger defense. I think that makes perfect sense. It is possible to get too young, too fast. Free agency would be a logical place to bring in some veteran help at OLB and other defensive positions. Lets remember, the puzzle is not complete yet, so lets not bash it until we can see the whole thing complete.
Sorry for the long post, but some sanity to this board was needed.

 

[Peachhead]

3. Shane Vereen and Stevan Ridley- I think these 2 picks mark a fundamental change to the offense. In that playoff loss we saw the Jets dare the Patriots to run the ball and the Patriots were ineffective doing it against a 3 man front. BJGE and Woodhead are the only 2 RB's on the roster, and BB always carries 4, so 2 were needed. Vereen is more than just a 3rd down back, I think anyone saying that has not watched film on him. He is a lot like Jahvid Best, not as explosive but with much better hands and pass protection skills. I will admit that Ridley went higher than I expected, but when you consider that BB had been working on the trade with Oakland for many hours, he probably had to reach for a guy the patriots TARGETED. Is that not what we want the patriots to do? Take guys they target not just let players fall. Also, anyone who says we would have been there in such and such a round is crazy, we have no idea how teams boards stack up. Just because Kiper and McShay say its a reach don't mean anything.

Then why did BB pass on Ingram? I don't have anything against Ridley and Vereen. But Ingram was giftwrapped and dropped into BBs lap. If BB recognized a need at RB then why pass?

Chance Vereen or Ridley become more than JAGs= 50/50 and that may be optimistic.

Chance that Ingram is going to be pretty good or better=about 90%

 

[A.C Vegas]

It was a great post but people don't want sanity right now they want to ***** and moan then when the players ,like McCourty last year (who got robbed in Droy votes) , do better then they expect they call the pick great.

 

[A.C Vegas]

Then why did BB pass on Ingram? I don't have anything against Ridley and Vereen. But Ingram was giftwrapped and dropped into BBs lap. If BB recognized a need at RB then why pass?

Chance Vereen or Ridley become more than JAGs= 50/50 and that may be optimistic.

Chance that Ingram is going to be pretty good or better=about 90%

obviously BB didn't agree with what the talking heads saw. I'd rather trust a coach with over 30 years in the league and has been around it his whole life then I would someones whos only job it is to grade players but never played hte game

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Then why did BB pass on Ingram? I don't have anything against Ridley and Vereen. But Ingram was giftwrapped and dropped into BBs lap. If BB recognized a need at RB then why pass?

Chance Vereen or Ridley become more than JAGs= 50/50 and that may be optimistic.

Chance that Ingram is going to be pretty good or better=about 90%

Because we got a godfather deal for Ingram.

I'm pretty sure those numbers are unscientific, but even if they were, it still makes sense. I'd rather take Vereen and Ridley at 50%, since that means one will be a player, greater odds than Ingram at 90%.

Plus an extra 1st!

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Then why did BB pass on Ingram? I don't have anything against Ridley and Vereen. But Ingram was giftwrapped and dropped into BBs lap. If BB recognized a need at RB then why pass?

Chance Vereen or Ridley become more than JAGs= 50/50 and that may be optimistic.

Chance that Ingram is going to be pretty good or better=about 90%

Why did he pass on Ingram?

Well, because he had the other guys rated higher

 

[PatsFanInVa]

This is absolutely the worst draft in the history of the NFL except every other Pats draft, which were also absolutely the worst drafts in the history of the NFL. Why, we passed on _________ [your name here of anybody picked after the first round who excelled in the past.] Insted, we picked _______ [your name here of any Patriots bust pick, especially in the last 5-10 draft classes.]

We had a need at __________ [your favorite need here, in an imperfect world,] as so clearly demonstrated in [high profile loss that made me cry in my beer.] What about that one game when that one play exposed the fact that the Pats can't ________ [phase of game I have decided, aided by mediots, is the "missing piece."]

News flash farkin brainiacs. They do think of these things.

I don't know how many of these things I've sat through watching people complain that we let this guy slide, let that guy slide, didn't pick running back, didn't pick a defensive back, didn't pick a linebacker, didn't pick an edge rusher, blah blah blah.

Faulk's out there, and they might not see the value of matching a high offer in FA. Anybody even the slightest bit upset about the Pats' ability to grind it out? Okay then we need a grind-it-out guy too. Hmmm. In a QB draft, when you have time to see what you can do with an immature guy, is it worth taking a round 1 physical talent in round 3? Hmmmm I dunno. Wait, what's with picking an O-lineman when our O line is defecting like a farkin East German ski team or whatever the hell cold war story I'm thinking of?

Look guys there is a frustrating reality to watching the draft: What you think, what a mediot tells you, what your own eyes tell you watching college competition, all the stats, all the factors you think you know cold, are all weighed along with interviews, hours more of tape study, conversations with coaches, knowledge/guesses at other teams' processes, biz considerations, you name it, in the bowels of Foxboro.

Somehow we limp along as the winningest franchise in the league. Yeah we want more rings, big whoop. Every team does.

Okay, this rant is as hackneyed as the original rant that started this rant. It's like we're just playing roles at this point. Your line is, "oh what a terrible draft." My line is, all the above stuff. Your line is, "oh but I have very important secret amateur draftnik knowledge that you dont have." My line is "But BB has more secret knowledge than you and he made the pick."

Blah blah blah blah.

I mean I know its just what fans do at draft time, but really -- couldn't you go do this as a Detroit fan or something, so you at least have results to complain about?

(PS, yes I'm glad we're not playing the Lions this year too.)

PFnV

 

[37Harrison]

Then why did BB pass on Ingram? I don't have anything against Ridley and Vereen. But Ingram was giftwrapped and dropped into BBs lap. If BB recognized a need at RB then why pass?

Chance Vereen or Ridley become more than JAGs= 50/50 and that may be optimistic.

Chance that Ingram is going to be pretty good or better=about 90%

Maybe BB and even Fears didn't think Ingram was worth a first round pick and saw more value in an extra 2nd round pick this year and additional 1st next year.

Maybe BB/Fears felt that Ingram didn't fit what the Pats do and based on what the Pats do, had others ranked close to Ingram?

Who knows but for someone to say that Ingram is going to be pretty good or better in a certain system before they even get the playbook, strap on some pads and get on the field is absurd.

There is no telling how any of these guys are going to play out which is why there are always 1st round busts and 5-6-7th round steals and UDF's that make a splash in the league.

 

[patsox23]

Then why did BB pass on Ingram? I don't have anything against Ridley and Vereen. But Ingram was giftwrapped and dropped into BBs lap. If BB recognized a need at RB then why pass?

Because BB, among many of US, thinks Ingram's not all that great. STOP READING MOCKS and assuming we just want THOSE guys.

 

[midwestpatsfan]

Then why did BB pass on Ingram? I don't have anything against Ridley and Vereen. But Ingram was giftwrapped and dropped into BBs lap. If BB recognized a need at RB then why pass?

Chance Vereen or Ridley become more than JAGs= 50/50 and that may be optimistic.

Chance that Ingram is going to be pretty good or better=about 90%

Its actually really easy to answer this question. Because BB obviously thought that a #1 next year, a #2 this year, and Ridley were much better value than Ingram at #28. The way the draft went, he obviously was very high on Vereen to take him over Leshore as well.
The way it played out, I have to think that BB had Ingram, Leshore and Ridley all ranked together for that type of big running back and had Vereen very high for that speed guy.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Not to split hairs but Vereen's a "space" guy but not a "speed" guy, not in that sub-4.4 (much less sub 4.3) way. He's Faulkesque - he is proud that he'll do blitz pickup, catch out of the backfield, turn 3 yards into 7, and oh yeah break loose now and then when the angles are right. A very Patriots guy, in other words.

 

[Patspsycho]

Okay, I have read all the posts about how we squandered this draft and how horrible BB is. Well, now it is time for some good ole fashioned logic for this draft so far. I will get to the picks in a second, but lets get a few things out of the way first.

1. This whole draft class may be squandered no matter who was picked and where. With the CBA still in limbo, these players may not even see a playbook until August. Training camp is going to be shortened as well as pre-season games. Every year we talk about how hard it is for ANY player to make the transition to the NFL when things are under normal conditions, now we will be asking all these players to make impacts on a 14-2 team from last year under extreme circumstances. Bringing in conversion projects to be OLB only makes the process harder and there is no way the Patriots could count on guys that had to make such a drastic schematic change in such a limited amount of coaching time. A year from now, all the people clamoring for these conversion guys would be on this very same message board claiming they are busts. RB, OLine, and CB seem to be positions that can come in and play without having a big learning curve, so making picks at those positions could help these guys get on the field faster.

Now, lets look at the picks:
1. Nate Solder-I cannot believe this was not on everyone's radar. Basically he is Sebatian Vollmers twin with more football experience. You just do not find guys with those physical tools that can move like they do. Is he perfect? No, but he has what cannot be taught and what he needs to improve on is easily fixed.

2. Ras-I-Dowling- Its not an OLB and that makes people mad, but I refer back to my original statement. Dowling again has size and speed you just can't teach. He was hurt, yes, but it was one year. All of these people who say he is always hurt have not done their homework. He played 35 of 36 games before his senior year. He got hurt, tried to come back to early, and re-injured himself. Team captain, really smart. Bodden is coming of an injury and anyone who feels comfortable with Arrington as a key player in that secondary is kidding themselves. The only negative to this pick is that Butler has not developed like we had thought. But wait....everyone loved that pick that year and wanted him in the 1st and all the draft pro's on this board so happy we took him, now they are the same ones calling him a bust.

3. Shane Vereen and Stevan Ridley- I think these 2 picks mark a fundamental change to the offense. In that playoff loss we saw the Jets dare the Patriots to run the ball and the Patriots were ineffective doing it against a 3 man front. BJGE and Woodhead are the only 2 RB's on the roster, and BB always carries 4, so 2 were needed. Vereen is more than just a 3rd down back, I think anyone saying that has not watched film on him. He is a lot like Jahvid Best, not as explosive but with much better hands and pass protection skills. I will admit that Ridley went higher than I expected, but when you consider that BB had been working on the trade with Oakland for many hours, he probably had to reach for a guy the patriots TARGETED. Is that not what we want the patriots to do? Take guys they target not just let players fall. Also, anyone who says we would have been there in such and such a round is crazy, we have no idea how teams boards stack up. Just because Kiper and McShay say its a reach don't mean anything.

4. Ryan Mallett- For months now, we heard about how this is a QB league and you have to get your QB or you cannot win. The Mallett pick is classic BB. We watched and laughed as we saw 4 QB's go in the top 12 and I cannot find a single person who believes these QB's were worth that pick. The Patriots, in a draft that looks weak right now, gets a top 15 talent quarterback. He is the most physically gifted of all the QB's in the draft class and is said to be a film junkie and a football rat. Just what you want. There are off the field issues, but if you could have Ben Rothlisberger for a 3rd round pick, you would probably do that. If he develops he has top 10 QB talent and that gives BB flexiblity. It is picks like this that have given the Patriots the additional draft picks in early rounds that have allowed the patriots to stay competitive.

Some other thoughts:
It is hard to win the Super Bowl people. I know we got spoiled for a while there, but the reason football is so great is that it is very competitive and very difficult to remain on top. The patriots have been so consistent and have at least put a team on the field that has a chance to win even if they do not every year.
Someone last night wrote that the Patriots are drafting to get younger on an older offense and will use free agency to bring in experience to a younger defense. I think that makes perfect sense. It is possible to get too young, too fast. Free agency would be a logical place to bring in some veteran help at OLB and other defensive positions. Lets remember, the puzzle is not complete yet, so lets not bash it until we can see the whole thing complete.
Sorry for the long post, but some sanity to this board was needed.

Nicely written and well thought out. Just one minor correction and I've highlighted it- you are dead wrong that the Patriots running game was ineffective. The Patriots just didn't use it. BJGE was on the field for only 9 snaps, never mind that he was averaging 4.8 ypc.

The two big problems in that game was the playcalling and the game-plan. The playcalling quickly turned one-dimensional, but that was because the game-plan was too inflexible and didn't address for the fact that the Jets inactive list on that day was mostly linemen. All the DB's they had on hand were active.

 

[Ring 6]

Then why did BB pass on Ingram? I don't have anything against Ridley and Vereen. But Ingram was giftwrapped and dropped into BBs lap. If BB recognized a need at RB then why pass?

Chance Vereen or Ridley become more than JAGs= 50/50 and that may be optimistic.

Chance that Ingram is going to be pretty good or better=about 90%

Because BB has a different assessment of Ingram than you do.
You can't be serios with the last sentence.

 

[Ring 6]

Its actually really easy to answer this question. Because BB obviously thought that a #1 next year, a #2 this year, and Ridley were much better value than Ingram at #28. The way the draft went, he obviously was very high on Vereen to take him over Leshore as well.
The way it played out, I have to think that BB had Ingram, Leshore and Ridley all ranked together for that type of big running back and had Vereen very high for that speed guy.

A poster here who attended the draft function at Gillette said Ivan Fears came right out before the draft and said we had 2 RBs rated ahead of Ingram. It seems obvious Vereen was one of them.

 

[AQPE]

This is one of the best threads I've seen on this forum for a long time, from the opening post all the way through. Bravo!

This goes out to all of you:

:youtheman:

 

[TheSolderKing]

Then why did BB pass on Ingram? I don't have anything against Ridley and Vereen. But Ingram was giftwrapped and dropped into BBs lap. If BB recognized a need at RB then why pass?

Chance Vereen or Ridley become more than JAGs= 50/50 and that may be optimistic.

Chance that Ingram is going to be pretty good or better=about 90%

big PASS on Ingram


he won't be a home run in the NFL. Many solid RB's are found after round 1 and later on in Draft.

edit.

he looks PUDGY to me

 

[Don Kipines]

Then why did BB pass on Ingram? I don't have anything against Ridley and Vereen. But Ingram was giftwrapped and dropped into BBs lap. If BB recognized a need at RB then why pass?

Chance Vereen or Ridley become more than JAGs= 50/50 and that may be optimistic.

Chance that Ingram is going to be pretty good or better=about 90%

But this isn't a Vereen-and-Ridley vs. Ingram equation. This equation is Vereen and a future #1 draft choice vs. Ingram. If they honestly liked Vereen enough to draft him in the second round, they must think he's pretty good.

I actually liked Vereen from the start (Ridley not so much). I think he can be a star in our offense. He's a tough kid with some speed who can pass protect and catch the ball. He won't need to come off the field on any down. How many plays last year did BJGE only get the proverbial "yards that were there"? I love Green-Ellis, but as Woodhead showed, any back with a little extra flash and tackle-breaking ability can be hugely productive in our offense, given how frightened defenses are of the passing game. This is a guy who can carry the ball 15-20 times and hit the occasional home run.

Maybe Ingram would have been better. But Vereen certainly looks like the better and more fluid receiver and has much better speed. He may not have Ingram's vision or strength, but he doesn't look like a slouch, either. Physically he looks to me like a Robert Smith, Roger Craig, or maybe a slightly bigger version of Charlie Garner, all tough, lean backs who were perfect fits for high-powered passing offenses -- great on draws, traps and screens, to take advantage of blitzes and the upfield rush. Clearly in this draft, with Solder, Cannon and Lee Smith, you see that the Patriots are concerned about protecting Brady. A back like Vereen makes sense in that regard, because a speed back who is a threat on swing passes and outlets will tend to slow the rush. Ingram looks like a pretty good trap-and-draw back as well, but not so hot catching the pass. They may honestly have thought Vereen was the better fit even in a head-to-head comparison.

 

[midwestpatsfan]

Day 2 made day 1 look even better. Cannon and Lee were great picks IMHO.
It just further shows the fundamental change that is coming to this offense. A truely balanced attack that can win by running the ball. Set up the pass by running instead of the other way around. I do not think any team really feared our running attack last year and that may change now.

Also, another thought...BB does not like what he sees from the OLB projects, maybe from a fit or production perspective, or maybe because teams do not have the luxury of time to develop them this year. So what does he do, then next best thing, strengthen the secondary to make it even more difficult to pass on them. That is what the pick of Dowling does.